St. James Infirmary (Denis)

Yes,

Phil Baxter and Carl Moore seem to have written (?) the song.

Already in 1926 Phil Baxter and his Texas Tommies had the song on their repertoire:

http://books.google.nl/books?id=HuSZ1fR4FawC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=Gambler's+Blues…=onepage&q=Gambler's%20Blues%20baxter&f=false

But the tune goes back even further:

And the opening chords of a 1924 song called "Charleston Cabin" show a striking similarity with St James Infirmary"

Listen to Whitey Kaufman's "Charleston Cabin" from March 1924.

http://www.redhotjazz.com/kaufman.html

St. James Infirmary (aka The Gambler's Blues) surfaces around 1900. The Gamblers Blues appeared in a published collection in 1920 with composer's credits going to E.V. Body (meaning everybody - author unknown).

The melody is reported to have been taken from a popular tune of the 1920's entitled When It's Chitlin Cookin' Time in Cheatham County. While the composer is listed as Joe Primrose (a pseudonym for Irving Mills), there is no doubt that the Armstrong version was plucked from the tree of The Unfortunate Rake and is a first cousin to Streets of Laredo.

http://www.ellismillermusic.com/Blog/Genealogy%20Sts%20of%20Laredo.pdf

Right at this moment I am working on a special about the origins of "Streets of Laredo", soon to be seen on my blog.

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2013-08-04 07:25:45 UTC

It's getting a bit convoluted and confusing-- The citation/book I linked was saying that Dying Crapshooter's Blues was written by Porter Granger, not by Blind Willie Mctell who took credit and the song evolved to become Gambler's Blues, related to St James Infirmary. They also name a couple of women artists who recorded it in 1927.

I did read it was related to Streets of Laredo and Cowboy's Lament, so I look forward to reading about those origins/evolution.

There does seem to be agreement that the origin of all those is an old English (?) ballad, The Unfortunate Rake. I have yet to hear this song and I sure would like to hear it. I am puzzled by SHS listing of TWO sets of covers. Under Versions, one says, The unfortunate rake - Traditional and the other says St Jame Infirmary- Irving Mills. However, ALL list the song as St James Infirmary and when I listen, they basically sound like the same song. Why the split?? Where can I find/listen to an old version of the English ballad from where all this seems to originate?

Could it be we'll never really know?

Here is the Kaufman song, Charleston Cabin. It has a bit of St James Infirmary

Quote from maryhelen

I did read it was related to Streets of Laredo and Cowboy's Lament, so I look forward to reading about those origins/evolution.

Where can I find/listen to an old version of the English ballad from where all this seems to originate?

Could it be we'll never really know?

well it's a very complex subject indeed.

In 1960 the Folkways label tried to bring some clarity in the subject and released an album with al those various versions.

You can listen to samples of all the versions:

http://www.folkways.si.edu/the-unfortunate-rake/american-folk-struggle-protest/m…

And here are the liner-notes:

http://media.smithsonianfolkways.org/liner_notes/folkways/FW03805.pdf

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2013-08-04 09:26:37 UTC

Thanks, Jojo. How can I access your blog to read the upcoming evolution of Streets of Laredo?

Quote from maryhelen

Thanks, Jojo. How can I access your blog to read the upcoming evolution of Streets of Laredo?

You can find my blog here: http://jopiepopie.blogspot.nl/2013/08/cowboys-lament-1927-streets-of-laredo.html

JoJo greets

And on my blog I've written a special about the origins of the "St James Infirmary".

http://jopiepopie.blogspot.nl/2013/09/gamblers-blues-1927-st-james-infirmary.htm…

JoJo greets

I have adjusted the 2 posts on my blog considerably.

Here are the 2 adjusted posts:

St. James Infirmary

SEE: https://jopiepopie.blogspot.com/2013/09/gamblers-blues-1927-st-james-infirmary.h…

Streets of Laredo

SEE: https://jopiepopie.blogspot.com/2013/08/cowboys-lament-1927-streets-of-laredo.ht…

JoJo greets

The entry has evolved a lot since 2003.

jojo, are there any further changes you would suggest?

"Dying Crapshooter's Blues was written by Porter Granger, not by Blind Willie Mctell "

Porter Grainger ran with Bessie Smith and Clarence Williams during the 20s, I went over all the songs I have him listed as writing. The last two were "Devil's Gonna Git You" and "Yes Indeed He Do!", Side A & B on 1928 Bessie single.

"Could it be we'll never really know?" yes

You guys do good work. I don't mind if you assign Guy Massey as the composer of The Prisoner's Song, Speckled Bird, I'm Thinking About My Two Black Eyes, Wild Side of Honky Tonk Angels, they all use the same tune. That is the evident truth.

I suspect early hillbilly-country music shared about five tunes until the 1940s, still working on proving that...

jojo, are there any further changes you would suggest?

jojo ?

Bastien I would suggest to split them up, with a cross-reference to each other and/or to "The Unfortunate Rake"

Although both songs are rooted in "The Unfortunate Rake:

"St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues" is more like a blues song,

"The Streets of Laredo" or "Cowboy's Lament", is more like a ballad or waltz, with varying melodies (the most famous was derived from the Irish tune "The Bard of Armagh")

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/138390

So a cross-reference "The Streets of Laredo" / "Cowboy's Lament" to "The Bard of Armagh" would also be appropriate.

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2022-02-18 14:20:16 UTC - Show original message

Bastien, Jojo's reasoning seems to make a lot of sense. "The Bard of Armagh" being the most ancient in the row (ca. end 1690s), it would replace The Unfortunate Rake / St. James Hospital as the root work in the adaptation tree and his submission go for the first known recording/release of "The Bard of Armagh".

Closely related thread started by Sebastian the other day.

camembert electrique would you care to take this report from me and make the changes jojo suggests? You clearly have more expertise than me on this topic.

Bastien, I'm sure you have a tight schedule. However, adding another complicated task like this one to mine would exceed my currently limited capacities. So I regret that I can't accept your offer this time.

Based on Jojo's great research, the combined efforts of the editors in charge/involved, as suggested in https://secondhandsongs.com/message/212785 , will surely lead to a good result.

jojo

As recommended, I split up St. James Hospital and The Unfortunate Rake . They are both set as adaptations of The Bard of Armagh , but not of eachother. I hope that's corrrect.

I also moved all performances that needed to be moved, based on the title:

Then there's also Streets of Laredo / Cowboy's Lament , which is now an adaptation of St. James Hospital .

So far so good?

Bastien you said:

As recommended, I split up St. James Hospital and The Unfortunate Rake . They are both set as adaptations of The Bard of Armagh , but not of eachother. I hope that's corrrect.

What I said in an earlier comment is to split up "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues", which more like a blues song, and "The Streets of Laredo" or "Cowboy's Lament", which is more like a ballad or waltz,

Both "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues" and "The Streets of Laredo" or "Cowboy's Lament" are (only) lyrically rooted in "The Unfortunate Rake" or "The Unfortunate Lass".

Almost all of the "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues" versions carry the same melody, which is totally different to the "The Streets of Laredo" or "Cowboy's Lament" versions.

There is no connection between "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues" and "The Bard of Armagh".

But there is a connection between the most familiar version of "The Streets of Laredo" or "Cowboy's Lament" and "The Bard of Armagh".

The difficult part is, that there also a few early versions of "The Streets of Laredo" or "Cowboy's Lament", which are set to a different melody.

JoJo greets

Last updated by Bastien on 2022-04-04 13:12:03 UTC - Show original message

There is no connection between "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues" and "The Bard of Armagh".

jojo : Please confirm, this implies the adaptation relation between St. James Hospital and The Bard of Armagh must be removed?

cc: sebcat

So this work page needs an update:

Streets of Laredo / Cowboy's Lament

Written by [Traditional]

Originally written by [Traditional]

Language English

Lyrically adapted from St. James Hospital written by [Traditional]

Melodically adapted from The Bard of Armagh written by [Traditional]

JoJo greets

Reminder

jojo better not post reminders, that restarts the clock.

Lyrically adapted from St. James Hospital written by [Traditional]

Melodically adapted from The Bard of Armagh written by [Traditional]

That's something we can't tweak, it always displays Adapted from

That's something we can't tweak, it always displays Adapted from

But, with the help of edit adaptations, it could be tweaked to:

adapted from St. James Hospital written by [Traditional] - Lyrics

adapted from The Bard of Armagh written by [Traditional] - Melody

Like this in the testdatabase

Which results in

You could even debate, if it should be adapted from The Unfortunate Rake

I mean:

adapted from The Unfortunate Rake written by [Traditional] - Lyrics

adapted from The Bard of Armagh written by [Traditional] - Melody

sebcat, please your opinion too, as you have processed The Bard of Armagh

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2023-07-08 08:17:49 UTC - Show original message

adapted from St. James Hospital written by [Traditional] - Lyrics

adapted from The Bard of Armagh written by [Traditional] - Melody

If St. James Infirmary is an adaptation (lyricization) from St. James Hospital , then by definition it takes its melody, which is the melody of The Bard of Armagh .

Therefore, an adaptation from St. James Infirmary to The Bard of Armagh is redundant?

Last updated by Bastien on 2023-07-09 16:31:23 UTC - Show original message

Therefore, an adaptation from St. James Infirmary to The Bard of Armagh is redundant?

Like I said in Comment by jojo 2022-03-17 14:02:17 CET

There is no connection between "St. James Infirmary Blues" or "Gambler's Blues" and "The Bard of Armagh".

JoJo greets

Ok, so you were not talking about St. James Infirmary but about Streets of Laredo / Cowboy's Lament .

But the reasoning remains the same:

If Streets of Laredo / Cowboy's Lament is an adaptation (lyricization) from St. James Hospital , then by definition it takes its melody, which is the melody of The Bard of Armagh .

Therefore, an adaptation from Streets of Laredo / Cowboy's Lament to The Bard of Armagh is redundant?

These are the most difficult cases in SHS.

Even more difficult for me. because I am not a full editor, so I don't have full oversight of this complex situation

To begin with The Bard of Armagh has to be removed from the top of the adaptation tree.

So the adaptation relation with The Unfortunate Rake has to be removed

I hope by doing this The Unfortunate Rake moves to the top of the tree automatically

The Bard of Armagh is only the musical source for maybe half of the performances of Streets of Laredo / Cowboy's Lament

So we should pick out these performances and with the edit parts function, set them as adaptations of The Bard of Armagh

example: Cowboy's Lament

Maybe we should test things out on the test site first

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2023-07-14 08:16:03 UTC - Show original message

Maybe we should test things out on the test site first

Yeah, I think so.

How about you making an adaptation tree over there that makes sense to you ? It would make things so much clearer.

How about you making an adaptation tree over there that makes sense to you ? It would make things so much clearer.

Fine with me,

But first you have to reset the testsite, because now the situation is not the same as on the real site.

and on the test site:

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2023-07-22 16:50:37 UTC - Show original message