Day of first performance

Having been active on SHS as an editor now for almost two years what often still puzzles me is the issue of day of first performance. I had an extensive interaction about this with our important Certified Contributor JeffC and the confusion is the following:

When you read the definition of release in our Guidelines - https://secondhandsongs.com/wiki/Guidelines/ReleaseConcept - the following is stated:

• A release is the physical or digital carrier of a performance.

But does this definition mean that the day of recording of this performance would also be the day of first performance?

We have many examples in the database of “first performances” related to stage shows, but also releases of recordings by other artists around the same time.

When looking - for example - at the work Silk Stockings, SHS lists Don Ameche from the stage show as the first performer on 26 November, 1954. The November date was the first day of try-outs for the show Silk Stockings. It officially opened in Boston on January 4, 1955 after Perry Como and Vic Damone recordings had been released in December 1954, performances probably recorded earlier and possibly in November before the day of the first try-out of the stage show.

The question is: if we knew the recording dates and they were before the date of the first try out, would these performances be noted as first performances?

Thom

Last edit: 2023-08-30 09:20:54 UTC by CarlDennis

There are lots of songs, that were performed before they were first recorded. Lots of old-time boogies, vaudeville songs, "traditionals", jazz songs. And probably also contemporary rock songs had robust performance lives well before anyone recorded them.

Consider Baby It's Cold Outside, which Frank Loesser and his (then) wife performed for years at parties before anyone ever recorded it. When was the "first performance" of that song?

Jeff gave me another example relating to first recording. Does this mean "first recording later appearing on a commercial release" and not - for example - on a rehearsal tape or demo tape or something similar?

Consider Old Time Rock & Roll by Bob Seger: the backing track to this performance was recorded some years before it was used by Seger for his 1978 release. That backing track was on a demo made by the songwriter and then on a re-recording of that demo with a different singer, which was the version sent to Seger, who used its backing track for his release. We do nott the demo date as a "first recording" in the data base, notwithstanding that the instrumental part of it appeared on the Seger commercial "first release" a couple years later.)

Food for thought we would say or am I re-opening discussions and fights, which took place in the early days of SHS.

Anyone?

Thom

Quote from CarlDennis

The question is: if we knew the recording dates and they were before the date of the first try out, would these performances be noted as first performances?

In my mind, I always insert the word "public" i.e. a recording is not a public performance, it becomes a public performance when it is released.

In many Broadway examples, the sequence is: Recording, Release, tryout, Broadway opening. There are a few possible issues:

- some editors don't count the tryout as a public performance, some do (I would probably do so)

- quite often, we don't know when the tryout was

- as the Release came before the tryout/Broadway opening, then some editors would say the Release is the first performance. This kind of depends on your definition of "performance": is playing the record a performance, or does it need someone to get on stage and perform?

If the sequence is: Recording, tryout, Broadway opening, Release, then I think it's simpler: the tryout/Broadway opening is the first performance because the recording isn't public.

With songs that were performed live before being recorded, the difficulty is, can we find the date of the first concert and be certain about it? And for Baby It's Cold Outside , I suppose there is also the question, is a party public?

Yes, first recording means first recording later appearing on a commercial release and not - for example - on a rehearsal tape or demo tape or something similar?

It might also be good to decide what "public" means. In US copyright/royalties law, "public performance" has a very broad definition. Using "Baby It's Cold Outside" as an example, when the Loessers sang it at parties these would probably have fit within the copyright definition. Playing a song at a concert or in a night club is almost certainly a public performance for copyright/royalties purposes.

I understood "tryout" in reference to stage shows to mean when actors auditioned for parts, and not early "shake down" performances of the shows themselves.

I was echoing Thom's use of the word "tryout", perhaps "preview run" is a better term?

Yes, I would agree that a concert or night club would be a public performance.

In my mind, I always insert the word "public" i.e. a recording is not a public performance, it becomes a public performance when it is released.

Do I understand this correctly, that you're suggesting that "first recording" should be restricted to recordings that are eventually released (and that then the date of the recording becomes relevant to whether it was the first recording)?

[I'm not objecting. I just want to be sure I understand.]

As to defining "first performance," I'd think that whether a performance was recorded would not be very informative about that (and similarly I don't see that whether a performance was recorded informs whether it was a public performance).

Quote from Jeff Chamberlain

Do I understand this correctly, that you're suggesting that "first recording" should be restricted to recordings that are eventually released (and that then the date of the recording becomes relevant to whether it was the first recording)?

[I'm not objecting. I just want to be sure I understand.]

Yes, that's correct (officially released). Examples: Love Me Do , It's a Man's World

Quote from Jeff Chamberlain

As to defining "first performance," I'd think that whether a performance was recorded would not be very informative about that (and similarly I don't see that whether a performance was recorded informs whether it was a public performance).

Yes, a performance doesn't have to be recorded to be a first performance, it just has to be public.

Got it, thanks.

Another example of a "first recording" that wasn't released at the time is "Rocking Pneumonia." The instrumental portion of the Huey Smith recording (September, 1958) became the track to the (December, 1958) Frankie Ford version, and the Smith recording (with original Bobby Marchan vocal) was eventually released in 1971.

Sea Cruise

But here I found another quite amazing example: Almost in Your Arms

When you look carefully there are five (5!) releases prior to the first performance by Sophia Loren in the movie Houseboat which had its premiere on November 19, 1958.................

So what is to be done here?

Thom

Last edit: 2019-02-09 07:08:44 UTC by CarlDennis

And presumably the Sophia Loren performance was "recorded" before the movie was released (and perhaps also "performed" before that date depending on definitions and circumstances, if for no other reason than that movies are sometimes shown "publicly" before their official release dates).

Here's another one:

SHS lists the Tommy Dorsey version of "Go Fly a Kite" as the "first recording," dated June, 1939. The Bing Crosby performance ("first") is listed under the release date of the movie in which it appeared (August, 1939). No recording date is listed for the Crosby performance. How do we know whether the Dorsey recording was earlier than the Crosby recording (since presumably the Crosby recording predates the movie's release date)?

Go Fly a Kite

Go Fly a Kite

This is a bit of a gap in our logic We almost never know when performances in films were recorded so we can't set them as first recordings. So yes we can up saying that the Dorsey recording is earlier than the Crosby recording, even though we don't actually know that.

And, if we did know when a film performance was recorded, it would leave us in some difficulty. In SHS, a performance can have only one date, so I guess we would need to choose whether to use the performance date or the recording date. I suppose that's a bit of a limitation.

Does it seem, um, odd to anyone else to list a "first recording" date while acknowledging that we don't know if it actually was?

[This may be getting off-track, as I think the main question was about "first performance" rather than "first recording."]

Quote from Jeff Chamberlain

It might also be good to decide what "public" means. In US copyright/royalties law, "public performance" has a very broad definition. Using "Baby It's Cold Outside" as an example, when the Loessers sang it at parties these would probably have fit within the copyright definition. Playing a song at a concert or in a night club is almost certainly a public performance for copyright/royalties purposes.

All true, but it's not my idea of "public". For me, and I hope for SHS, a public performance can not be at a private party. The first performance worthy of inclusion on SHS, should by all means be well documented - not based on an anecdote or even worse, a rumour - and reachable for a large audience.

Definitions can be tough. Defining "public performance" may be such a case.

Consider a performer premiering a new song --

-- At an "invitation only" affair (for example a charity ball or a fundraiser, or a "command performance" for a dignitary).

-- At a wedding reception, when the performer is not a member of the wedding party nor otherwise an invited guest (but is rather hired to provide entertainment).

-- At a nightclub or concert, or in a stage show, where attendance is limited by the size or location of the venue (and so not available to the "public at large," nor to those who don't buy a ticket).