I have noticed that some foreign adaptations are translations of the original, whereas others have completely different lyrics. For example, "Am Tag, als Conny Kramer starb" by Juliane Werding, is an anti-drug song. The original, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down", is something different altogether. Is there a way to differentiate between these two types?
My position has been and remains that if an adaption has completely independent lyrics, then the original lyricist should get no credit (assuming they are not also credited for the music). On the other hand, if the translator attempts to match or are inspired by (i.e. the same general message) the original lyrics, then the original lyricist gets a credit.
So far, this has been a losing battle, nevertheless I still maintain that further adaptions of these independent lyrics often get confusing and inaccurate credits on site.
A detailed discussion: https://secondhandsongs.com/topic/73599
Last edit: 2018-05-21 04:33:33 UTC by Tar Heel
I'm inclined to agree with you on this. Not sure I want to push on it too much, being fairly new here.
I was thinking of something where you could tell at a glance which is which. I guess I could simply put something in the comments section of the listing.
Edit: I think the editor would have to make the comment IIRC.
Hello David,
First of all, glad to see your joining the community 
Welcome!!
As for your question: Usually you can't differentiate, except for translations of translations. Let's take Comme d'habitude for example.
For its adaptation My Way , you don't know. However, for A mi manera you do, because it's based on "My Way" and not on "Comme d'habitude", so it must use parts of "My Way".
I'm glad to come on board, and thanks for the warm welcome!
I guessed that was the case with these cover, just wanted to be sure. If you happen to know both languages, you'll figure it out anyway.
Here's likely another example: an adaption of Der Kommissar (Rap' That) …, for which Falco is only credited for the lyrics. After listening to Deep in the Dark …, I suspect that the lyrics are completely new and independent; however, Falco is credited on site (at least his name shows up on the page).
Again, my personal losing battle (with a trail of dead windmills to prove it) and assuming I'm correct with this example, the credit is clearly incorrect in my view....
Thought about this thread (yet again) when looking at So ist mein Leben. The images sure suggest that the performing artist considers himself covering "My Way" (and presumably translating those independent lyrics) rather then the original root's lyrics:
https://www.discogs.com/Hermann-Prey-Welterfolge/release/1779364
I continue to take the position that Management and the editors don't take this general matter seriously enough, resulting in improper credits and visualization....
Yes VV,
There are certainly still imperfections on the site.
Most of the time I use the report error button to inform the editor
https://secondhandsongs.com/report-error?performanceId=714708
So this would be the proper handling ?
Unfortunately we have an additional problem here, because Charly Niessen is the German lyricist of both German adaptations.
JoJo greets
JJ... This issue (as evidenced by the two forum threads) is much bigger than a performance/work specific error report, at least in my view. An active editor has stated to me several times that (s)he simply doesn't care about this question.
I revisit the matter from time to time in an attempt to illustrate what I think are absurd visualizations on site....
Thought about this thread (yet again) when looking at So ist mein Leben. The images sure suggest that the performing artist considers himself covering "My Way" (and presumably translating those independent lyrics) rather then the original root's lyrics:
https://www.discogs.com/Hermann-Prey-Welterfolge/release/1779364
I continue to take the position that Management and the editors don't take this general matter seriously enough, resulting in improper credits and visualization....
As far as I remember, the latest update to the guidelines to cover this situation were in 2018. By default an adaptation in a new language is linked to the root work. Except if the subject of the lyrics are very close to another adaptation, and remarkably different from the root work. So if the lyrics of So ist mein Leben are materially much closer to My Way than Comme d'habitude, then yes it should be linked to the English adaptation. Is that the case in this case? My German isn't good enough to know.
As far as I remember, the latest update to the guidelines to cover this situation were in 2018. By default an adaptation in a new language is linked to the root work. Except if the subject of the lyrics are very close to another adaptation, and remarkably different from the root work. So if the lyrics of So ist mein Leben are materially much closer to My Way than Comme d'habitude, then yes it should be linked to the English adaptation. Is that the case in this case? My German isn't good enough to know.
Since I'm effectively limited to English, I'm operating with a handicap in this area. I generally go by whether a) the "definitive" recording is the English adaption; b) the performance has the English adaption as a subtitle; and/or c) the performance is a medley with the English adaption. Admittedly I can still reach incorrect conclusions, but these clues are all material evidence at least.
Here's likely another example: an adaption of Der Kommissar (Rap' That) …, for which Falco is only credited for the lyrics. After listening to Deep in the Dark …, I suspect that the lyrics are completely new and independent; however, Falco is credited on site (at least his name shows up on the page).
Again, my personal losing battle (with a trail of dead windmills to prove it) and assuming I'm correct with this example, the credit is clearly incorrect in my view....
You would need an enhancement to the database in this case - as the editor entering the case would need to choose whether the lyrics were indeed linked to the original or not. If that enhancement was made, then you could indeed change the visualisation so that the original lyricist was only shown in the former case. But I don't know whether there's enough interest in this issue to prioritise this change to the database.
Here's likely another example: an adaption of Der Kommissar (Rap' That) …, for which Falco is only credited for the lyrics. After listening to Deep in the Dark …, I suspect that the lyrics are completely new and independent; however, Falco is credited on site (at least his name shows up on the page).
Again, my personal losing battle (with a trail of dead windmills to prove it) and assuming I'm correct with this example, the credit is clearly incorrect in my view....
You would need an enhancement to the database in this case - as the editor entering the case would need to choose whether the lyrics were indeed linked to the original or not. If that enhancement was made, then you could indeed change the visualisation so that the original lyricist was only shown in the former case. But I don't know whether there's enough interest in this issue to prioritise this change to the database.
Another handicap I suppose is that I can't see how the editors make the sausage, I can only taste the end result. For a relatively one off like the example above, a comment would likely suffice; however, there are major works and adaptions where a more formal process may be required. I have suggested that for these "major" situations, we start with a new root work with correct credits and an applicable comment.
I have suggested that for these "major" situations, we start with a new root work with correct credits and an applicable comment.
It won't work with the database structure, as adaptations are linked to one another via the songwriting credits. I'd be wary moving away from this basic approach, which works really well for most adaptations.
I have suggested that for these "major" situations, we start with a new root work with correct credits and an applicable comment.
It won't work with the database structure, as adaptations are linked to one another via the songwriting credits. I'd be wary moving away from this basic approach, which works really well for most adaptations.
This doesn't make sense to me, as the same songwriters are connected to many different works. What I'm suggesting would apply when we have new "root work" lyrics, even if the music is borrowed. Perhaps something else going on, but is this not what was done with Can't Help Falling in Love?
This doesn't make sense to me, as the same songwriters are connected to many different works. What I'm suggesting would apply when we have new "root work" lyrics, even if the music is borrowed. Perhaps something else going on, but is this not what was done with Can't Help Falling in Love?
Yes it's more clear-cut with partial adaptations. For full adaptations, we'd need a way in the database to distinguish:
(i) cases where the adaptation lyrics are not based on the original lyrics. This is the default, as you spotted with your So ist mein Leben example.
(ii) rare cases where the adaptation lyrics are based on the original lyrics.
As the first scenario is the default, it would make sense not to pull the original lyricist through as the default, as happens with partial adaptations. But ideally we'd need a way to be able to allow the pull-through for the second scenario.
Yes it's more clear-cut with partial adaptations. For full adaptations, we'd need a way in the database to distinguish:
(i) cases where the adaptation lyrics are not based on the original lyrics. This is the default, as you spotted with your So ist mein Leben example.
(ii) rare cases where the adaptation lyrics are based on the original lyrics.
As the first scenario is the default, it would make sense not to pull the original lyricist through as the default, as happens with partial adaptations. But ideally we'd need a way to be able to allow the pull-through for the second scenario.
Don't you have that reversed?
Am I to believe that all (except one) of the non-English adaptions of Sleigh Ride have lyrics not based on the English lyrics? This seems highly doubtful to me....
Sleigh Ride started out as an instrumental with that title, so it's likely most of the foreign-language adaptations will have lyrics similar to the English ones. Whether that means they should be shown as adaptations of the English one is up to interpretation I guess
Sleigh Ride started out as an instrumental with that title, so it's likely most of the foreign-language adaptations will have lyrics similar to the English ones. Whether that means they should be shown as adaptations of the English one is up to interpretation I guess
If the adaption lyrics are independent of the English lyrics, one would think the titles would reflect the new subject matter of the song. Decided to test some:
En slæde til to = A sled for two
Jenom klid = Just calm down
Rekiretki = Sleigh Ride
Promenade en traineau = Sleigh ride
Schlittenfahrt = Sleigh ride
Χριστός γεννάται {Christós gennátai} = Jesus is born
Based on that evidence, I'd safely guess that at least 4 of those 6 are adaptions of the English lyrics....
Last edit: 2021-04-07 18:33:51 UTC by Tar Heel
