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"The Great Judgement Morning"

Oldiesmann

Managing Editor
Posts: 2756

Oldiesmann @ 2018-11-14 04:08:05 UTC

Can anyone verify when R.E. Winsett added a tune to "The Great Judgement Morning"? Most sources I've found agree that the lyrics were written in 1893 or 1894 by Bert Shadduck (possibly published anonymously in a Salvation Army publication around that time, based on information from The New Georgia Encyclopedia), but I can't find any evidence other than a listing on hymnary.org showing 6 different hymnals having this song with credits to Winsett. The seventh one listed under Winsett is actually credited to Charles Tillman, and the other (more popular) version is credited to Leander L. Pickett.


The same melody is used for the versions recorded by both Roy Acuff and Hank Williams, and that melody is different than the ones shown in the sheet music on hymnary.org.


I know that these old hymns can be somewhat complicated since different melodies can be used with the same lyrics and vice versa (different sets of lyrics to the same tune), but this one is really bugging me Tongue

CarlDennis

Retired Editor
Posts: 2752

CarlDennis @ 2018-11-14 05:14:21 UTC

It is great, Michael, that you take the time to unravel the history of these old melodies. I am afraid I cannot help you here........

Thom

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-08-21 14:15:12 UTC

Michael, I'm so glad I finally saw your post. I had added "The Great Judgement Morning" earlier this year and credited Winsett as he was on the Louvin Brothers release and I found him on GEMA. I ran into the song this morning and realized I needed to add more. I found 2 George Jones ones. One w/ a bunch of guests and created that release. The 2nd one you had added the release and left a great note saying you hadn't added Great Judgement Morning due to authorship confusion. I then added the 1951 Hank Williams version. and there are a bunch more to follow that I will add.

And yes the Hymnary site is a mess. It credits Winsett but the visual on the page has sheet music w/ Tillman's name on it as you had mentioned.

Anyway, I found this great article on it all which you may have already seen. I'm documenting some of this so I don't forget it.

Betram H. Shadduck published a poem in the August 27, 1892 edition of the Salvation Army's "War Cry" publication called "A Dream". It was published under a nom de plume, Nomad of Hannibal, Missouri. It was pretty much word for word of how the song is known. Charlie Tillman copyrighted it in 1893 with War Cry listed for text (as Shadduck hadn't identified himself). The following year L.L. Pickett copyrighted it for the music and listed War Cry for the text. In 1898 it was publised w/ F.L. Eiland as composer and text to annonymous. In 1913 the Rodehaver Company published a hymnal listing Pickett and actually naming Shadduck outright (so 1913 was the first time he was officially credited for text). However, In 1939 Virgil O. Stamps copyrighted a new musical setting and listed War Cry for the text (so he must not have known Shadduck had been identified). In 1957 Stamps issued another hymnal this time crediting Renus E. Rich for music under the title "I Dreamed of the Last Judgment" (no "e") with anonymous for text. In 1934 R.E. Winsett copyrighted a version crediting himself as composer and anonymous for text.

In 1941 Roy Acuff popularly recorded it and his release credited Winsett which is what has caused others to follow. I added the Hank Williams 1951 recording and on it he said he learned the song from his grandmother when he was little. Wiliams is credited in the PROs but again that was probably just out of habit as he flat out said he learned it from his grandmother on the video I attached.

This is a convoluted mess. I think what's appropriate (and what the author of the article says) is to credit Shadduck for lyrics and Charlie Tillman for music since he set it to music first and there really isn't any variation at least on the ones I have added so far. I would rather do that than say "Unknown" for music and I don't recommend setting up a bunch of music only adaptations as I detest that we do that on SHS as it just creates nightmares for people when adding cover performances.

Let me know what you think?


https://books.google.com/books?id=nrseBgAAQBAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=the+great+j…=onepage&q=the%20great%20judgement%20morning%20r.e.%20winsett%20charles%20tillman&f=false

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Mark

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-08-21 14:42:54 UTC

I created the Poem too. I've gotta run for a bit. I'll review what I set up again later today for a sanity check.

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Mark

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-08-21 18:36:46 UTC

Okay so now it's much more complicated. I added the 1913 orig. by Homer Rodeheaver and the 1941 country version by Acuff and found videos. Obviously songs will sound diff. when performed in diff. genres, but the two sound night and day diff as in one would never readily know it's the same song. Rodeheaver's version (not sure what genre you call his) credits only L.L. Pickett (the 2nd guy who registered the music) If memory serves it was in one of Rodeheaver's hymnals. The McCravy Brothers 1930 gospel song (no video for it though) also credits Pickett...Acuff's version credits Winsett solely.

I'm not a fan of setting up musical adaptations because it causes issues assigning songs but I don't know what to do here. I haven't revised my Work Comments yet to reflect this in case we just want to go with what I initially said. If you look on Discogs some will be credited to the orig. music copyright holder Tindley, some will say Pickett, some will say Winsett. I don't know that these were assigned because they used diff. tunes I just think they credited who they thought they were supposed to.

Thoughts?

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Mark

Oldiesmann

Managing Editor
Posts: 2756

Oldiesmann @ 2020-08-22 02:11:20 UTC

Your guess is as good as mine on this one. Definitely a royal mess.

jojo

New Editor
Posts: 1766

jojo @ 2023-06-06 09:57:32 UTC

Oldiesmann

I know that these old hymns can be somewhat complicated since different melodies can be used with the same lyrics and vice versa (different sets of lyrics to the same tune), but this one is really bugging me Tongue

I think, that's exactly what we've gotta do.

We could set the 2 different musical settings as 2 different adaptations ("long quote") from A Dream [Poem]


JoJo greets