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Elements (When To Note In Comments)

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2019-09-07 16:07:29 UTC

Editor consistency is of obvious value to SHS objectivity and is needed for contributor error reports (i.e. to file or not to file error reports). In my view, I have experienced inconsistency on when an element should be noted in the public comments of a performance.


What triggered this post is my post-processing review of three similar reports re: elements. Of the three, in my view from prior SHS experience, there was a definite case for comment, a solid case, and an admittedly grey case, yet the editor concluded none were comment-worthy.


First, my position is that there is little to no harm in including any accurate/objective info to the comments.


Second, noting elements in the public comments helps to reduce error reports. For instance, even if I treat a recording as a medley or mash, if I see the element noted in the comments I take no action (i.e. the issue has been accounted for).


Third, due to the apparent (obvious from my experience) editor inconsistency regarding elements, some guideline appears to be advisable if not necessary.

walt

Editor
Posts: 5775

walt @ 2019-09-08 13:03:31 UTC

What triggered this post is my post-processing review of three similar reports re: elements. Of the three, in my view from prior SHS experience, there was a definite case for comment, a solid case, and an admittedly grey case, yet the editor concluded none were comment-worthy.


The point is NOT whether the musical elements appear in the song, cause in the three cases mentioned they are, but the point is: are these noteworthy? In my opnion: no.


1 Someone singing 'Should I stay or should I go' in the middle of Baby It's Cold Outside is a funny nod to the Clash song, just that. 2. Recycling a bass & organ part for a brief moment is another (musical) nod. 3. Singing Hey Jude's 'na-na-na-na-na' for a few bars is another ... In all three cases, they are funny details, but not infringing anyone's copyright, as I see it.


I can't imagine, these type of musical nods weren't discussed before.


The Whosampled website is full of quotations like these btw

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2019-09-08 14:04:57 UTC

I intentionally didn't mention the editor who reviewed the three nor provided links to the three to keep the discussion more broad, but since now known:


a) The Clash reference is the "admittedly grey" case that would fall into the "what's the harm in a comment" to account for category:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/114674


b) Sorry, but switching to an entirely different work for ~25-30 seconds would have been considered a noteworthy element by all of the other editors that have reviewed my similar reports. This is the solid case originally referenced and examples undeniable editor inconsistency and the need for the guideline:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/114387


c) The "Hey Jude" element starts ~halfway in and continues almost to the end (~1:20), far more than your claimed "few bars". (Adjusting to ~1:17 thru ~1:57 after a more precise measurement. The original times were estimates made immediately after listening to the recording.) That's ~40 seconds of an ~2:40 recording. The element is so clear and substantial that one could arguably stretch to medley or mash treatment. This one was the definite case:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/114746


Walt's position appears to negate the element concept, favoring an all or nothing approach (i.e. medley/mash or nothing). Is this where SHS wants to go? I actually do not note elements in my notes, so in practice I only file this type of report immediately after listening.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 35803

Bastien @ 2019-09-17 18:54:51 UTC

Without going into the specific cases themselves (unless someone explicitly asks me to, then I will), here are my views on a very general level:

  • Listing elements aka partial covers: The objective of the database is being comprehensive. Using the database structures.
  • Listing references: Nice-to-have, closely linked to the concept of covers. Using the comment box.
  • Listing inspirations: Why-not, somewhat linked to the concept of covers. Using the comment box.

Of course, it's not always clear what is a partial cover and what is a reference. In doubt, use the comment box.

See also: https://secondhandsongs.com/page/Guidelines/Entities/Works/CommentBox (updated)

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2019-09-19 00:37:52 UTC

I remain a bit unclear as to how I should handle (what I determine to be) missing elements. A "guideline" indicates a suggestion at least, a best practice at best. This is as opposed to a rule, which would be a direction or mandate.


Contributors should not be expected to remember different editor preferences, so is a missing element error report worthy or not?

walt

Editor
Posts: 5775

walt @ 2019-09-19 10:08:53 UTC

Contributors should not be expected to remember different editor preferences, so is a missing element error report worthy or not?


It's not about "editor preferences", it's about "substantiality" - would I feel be stolen as an author (or just flattered - in your cases)


Here is an example where a comment is essential:

Bei mir bist du schoen

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2019-09-19 12:24:11 UTC

Contributors should not be expected to remember different editor preferences, so is a missing element error report worthy or not?


It's not about "editor preferences", it's about "substantiality" - would I feel be stolen as an author (or just flattered - in your cases)


Here is an example where a comment is essential:

Bei mir bist du schoen


First, I will have to take your word for it that your example includes a noteworthy element since I have no personal interest in the relevant works.


Second, you can take similar assurances that other editors have readily agreed that elements even as short as the above exampled Clash reference were noteworthy for the comments. That alone proves editor inconsistencies (aka preferences) on this matter.


Third, if you consider an author is being pilfered from in a particular instance, that strongly suggests that element treatment is not enough, … suggesting medley, mash or even an adaption treatment.


It's rather obvious that an element, no matter the level of materiality or whether substantial or not, is comment appropriate but is a comment ever required. The remaining questions:

a) Is a missing substantial element an error; and

b) How is substantial defined for this purpose.

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2019-10-30 23:48:33 UTC

Well, looks like yet another discussion that withered and died. Absent a clear and objective standard, I have stopped reporting elements. There have been a number that I recently ignored, bringing this thread back to my front burner....