Vocalese, vocalise and scat

Quote from camembert electrique

Quote from VirileVagabond

Watch out DB. They will soon be labeling your voluntary restraint "questionable" and "not taking responsibility".

https://secondhandsongs.com/message/202243

You understand the SHS guidelines and rules very well. And IMHO it is actually questionable for a CC, who would be expected to agree to the site's policies, to express that "what editors decide isn't relevant" to him.

Thanks for "intergrating" this out of context quote... There is a German saying: "Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen". It fits. Look it up.

Not out of context at all. I refrain from adding vids so all of the applicable guidelines, definitions, etc. are irrelevant to my SHS activity. Similarly, DB stated that he will just refrain from adding performances that one of these tags apply, resulting in the applicable guidelines, definitions, etc. being irrelevant to him.

In English, there's also a saying: A distinction without a difference. I won't task you with looking anything up

So you're welcome, and thanks for giving me yet another reason to explain this.

Yeah, I'm not sure what English sebcat is using, but I've never heard that on this side of the pond.

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

Yeah, I'm not sure what English sebcat is using, but I've never heard that on this side of the pond.

Ah must only be here in the UK. Odd.

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

Yeah, I'm not sure what English sebcat is using, but I've never heard that on this side of the pond.

In the South we say "apples and oranges", which is an applicable response if the distinction makes a difference. So far, I believe (and always believed) that there is value in tagging an instrumental performance that comes with fruit, but I see no material value in having separate tags for instrumentals that come with apples, comes with Southern oranges or comes with German pears.

Quote from VirileVagabond

...but I see no material value in having separate tags for instrumentals that come with apples, comes with Southern oranges or comes with German pears.

Seems we're getting (back) to the point...

Quote from camembert electrique

Quote from VirileVagabond

...but I see no material value in having separate tags for instrumentals that come with apples, comes with Southern oranges or comes with German pears.

Seems we're getting (back) to the point...

I never left the point. This has always been my point.

Read ...and yes, VOCALESE needs a new work at all times, but finding official authorship is mostly a mission impossible.

Last edit: 2020-10-25 10:15:58 UTC by walt

Sorry, I was pointed here from my own post http://secondhandsongs.com/topic/76257 because I had troubles to add some tracks from a CD related to them not actually having 'words' but vocal performance with what I consider "scatting" per the above definitions. I understand these should be added as 'instrumentals' and then tagged as 'scat'? However, I fail to find where I can add this tag? Here is the first try of mine applying this. It is now an instrumental: https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/104311

Is someone able to give me more direction here?

Quote from VirileVagabond

I would be filing a report indicating that I know 1 of x applicable tags is missing, deferring to the editors to determine which one.

Don't create error reports for missing tags if you can add them yourself.

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

@Bastien I fail to see what guideline I broke.

rat's ass, exercise in stupidity, nonsense

This is not respectful feedback, neither is it constructive.

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

I still stick to my opinion.

Which is fine.

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

And I RESPECTFULLY will no longer be adding any more songs that fall into this category.

Which is also fine. Any editor adds the covers he or she likes.

Quote from microtherion

That was always my understanding what our policies were.

Extracting this discussion to https://secondhandsongs.com/topic/76291

Quote from sebcat

Quote from camembert electrique

Thanks for "intergrating" this out of context quote... There is a German saying: "Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen". It fits. Look it up.

It's the same expression in English

I also stand by camembert electrique on this.

Quote from Pommel

Sorry, I was pointed here from my own post http://secondhandsongs.com/topic/76257 because I had troubles to add some tracks from a CD related to them not actually having 'words' but vocal performance with what I consider "scatting" per the above definitions. I understand these should be added as 'instrumentals' and then tagged as 'scat'? However, I fail to find where I can add this tag? Here is the first try of mine applying this. It is now an instrumental: https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/104311

Is someone able to give me more direction here?

Welcome to the discussion Pommel , and thanks for your question. You can't see the tags, because they can only be applied AFTER an entry has been processed.

Quote from Bastien

Welcome to the discussion Pommel , and thanks for your question. You can't see the tags, because they can only be applied AFTER an entry has been processed.

Which is...kind of confusing :-)

Quote from Bastien

Quote from VirileVagabond

I would be filing a report indicating that I know 1 of x applicable tags is missing, deferring to the editors to determine which one.

Don't create error reports for missing tags if you can add them yourself.

I thought the goal was to add every applicable tag. A missing objective tag isn't an error?

Quote from Bastien

Quote from sebcat

Quote from camembert electrique

Thanks for "intergrating" this out of context quote... There is a German saying: "Äpfel mit Birnen vergleichen". It fits. Look it up.

It's the same expression in English

I also stand by camembert electrique on this.

Are there no Euros that understand "a distinction without a difference"?

Not taking into account all reasonably foreseeable costs of a policy results in waste, frustration, and unexpected reactions. Ignoring costs that are identified is even worse.

Quote from VirileVagabond

Are there no Euros that understand "a distinction without a difference"?

I reckon there are quite some 'Euros' who understand that expression pretty well.

As for vocalese, vocalize etc.: As expressed, I do consider that creating 'distinctions without (considerable) differences'. It's like distinguishing between Golden Delicious, Golden Ginger and Golden Russet when only 'apple' (if any tag at all) is needed.

In that respect, I surely agree to your "there is value in tagging an instrumental performance that comes with fruit..." - and, f. ex., can't see myself adding any of those tags to Bra Joe from Kilimanjaro on which the artist can be heard mumbling-singing to his solo piano playing.

PS: Obviously, my "comparing apples to pears" related to the taken out of a different context pasting my answer to your "what editors decide isn't relevant" (to you) quote.

Quote from camembert electrique

PS: Obviously, my "comparing apples to pears" related to the taken out of a different context pasting my answer to your "what editors decide isn't relevant" (to you) quote.

First, B wasn't real clear (as is often the case), so I provided a broader response.

Second, the exact history was related to when the site rules get too complex, numerous and/or confusing then some editors and contributors will simply cease the site activity to which those rules apply. While I don't add videos to existing entries, since the new rules regarding level 1, et. seq. vids are so complex I will likely never reconsider that position,

I used to add AMG links to the external links, but I was advised that there is some wonky rule regarding which type of AMG link is required. As the restriction seemed so arcane, I no longer add AMG links. This is likely not a material loss to the site. On the other hand, since I find Discogs links far more valuable to the site, I have tried to get a handle on the applicable rules, even though experience proves that the editors do not apply them uniformly.

After expressing some frustration regarding vocalese, et. al., DB stated they will simply not add performances to which he believes one of these tags apply.

The point is action vs, reaction, which makes these apples and apples. Since I don't add vids and stopped adding AMG links and since DB (at least suggested that he) stopped adding those performances, the vid, AMG link, and vocalese tag rules are irrelevant to those who react in that way.

I see failure to consider reasonably foreseeable reactions in these discussions constantly, sometimes a complete resistance to even hearing them. CC authority is a good example, as I see proposals without any evidence of CCs wanting such authorities. The reaction is essentially silence, which leads to frustration, disappointment and wasted efforts.

I'll end with another American saying; once someone decides to stop doing x for any reason, they no longer have a dog in that fight.

Quote from VirileVagabond

I used to add AMG links to the external links

To use yet another strange saying: I may be standing on the wire, but what's an AMG link?

Btw., there are some who don't even start doing x...