Search

News

Vocalese, vocalise and scat

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2020-11-16 02:53:05 UTC

I used to add AMG links to the external links

To use yet another strange saying: I may be standing on the wire, but what's an AMG link?

Btw., there are some who don't even start doing x...


AMG = All Music Guide: https://www.allmusic.com/


People can never start doing x for the same reason(s) people stop doing x. I won't start adding vocalese, et. al. tags for the same reason I stopped adding AMG links, namely the applicable site guidelines are overly complex and/or restrictive for me to bother.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 35801

Bastien @ 2020-11-16 13:08:32 UTC

Welcome to the discussion Pommel , and thanks for your question. You can't see the tags, because they can only be applied AFTER an entry has been processed.

Which is...kind of confusing :-)

Yes, I understand. Might be useful in a future upgrade to be able to select tags while submitting a cover song. Now you have to come back to tag it, that's not very convenient.

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2020-11-16 15:15:16 UTC

Might be useful in a future upgrade to be able to select tags while submitting a cover song. Now you have to come back to tag it, that's not very convenient.


This has been previously suggested by myself and others several times. Currently, the best practice is to note any tag info (e.g. live recording) in the original submission....

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 35801

Bastien @ 2020-11-21 14:42:20 UTC

Yes, I understand. Might be useful in a future upgrade to be able to select tags while submitting a cover song. Now you have to come back to tag it, that's not very convenient.
Ticket #3328

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-11-21 15:55:32 UTC

To me the two most important things not in the Performance submission form 1) check box for LIVE tag which is checked quite often; and 2) check box to show performer alias. #2 is a big deal because you have to go to the artist page into the Alias section to check this box and it would be much simpler to just check it as you are submitting.

I don’t think the other Tags are used enough to warrant having them in the Performance submission form

Last edit: 2020-11-21 16:01:43 UTC by mduval32323

______
Mark

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2020-11-21 16:15:31 UTC

To me the two most important things not in the Performance submission form 1) check box for LIVE tag which is checked quite often; and 2) check box to show performer alias. #2 is a big deal because you have to go to the artist page into the Alias section to check this box and it would be much simpler to just check it as you are submitting.

I don’t think the other Tags are used enough to warrant having them in the Performance submission form


Won't argue about any of this other than perhaps the alias. Seems like auto-adding a tag during processing is far less material than auto-creating a new alias. As things are now, I will typically submit under the primary artist name and add in the submission (e.g.):

Artist styled as: [alias]

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-11-25 01:29:47 UTC

I would stick to referring to them as AllMusic...AMG is a rather common acronym and the site isn't well known by it either. Now Rate Your Music could be shortened to RYM is so desired.

______
Mark

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6507

camembert electrique @ 2020-11-25 01:57:16 UTC

I just added Cold Duck Time, which features instrumental(ized) non-verbal lead vocals by Les McCann. So, what kind of vocalxxx do others think this is?

Scat? The vocals are of non-language nature and seem improvised, but may as well have been rehearsed...

Vocalise? The vocal melody is pretty much according to the work's lead one...

Vocalese? The original is both an instrumental and a Jazz song...

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6507

camembert electrique @ 2020-11-25 02:02:13 UTC

I would stick to referring to them as AllMusic...AMG is a rather common acronym and the site isn't well known by it either. Now Rate Your Music could be shortened to RYM is so desired.

I don't see the word Guide anywhere on https://www.allmusic.com , but RYM for Rate Your Music (another site of inconsistent quality) is indeed quite common.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 35801

Bastien @ 2020-12-14 16:48:26 UTC

To me the two most important things not in the Performance submission form 1) check box for LIVE tag which is checked quite often; and 2) check box to show performer alias. #2 is a big deal because you have to go to the artist page into the Alias section to check this box and it would be much simpler to just check it as you are submitting.

mduval32323

Thank you for your insights, highly appreciated. But can I ask you to create specific forum topics for these suggestions? Trying to keep things +/- manageable and within scope.

Last edit: 2020-12-14 16:55:34 UTC by Bastien

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 35801

Bastien @ 2020-12-14 16:55:11 UTC

I just added Cold Duck Time, which features instrumental(ized) non-verbal lead vocals by Les McCann. So, what kind of vocalxxx do others think this is?

Scat? The vocals are of non-language nature and seem improvised, but may as well have been rehearsed...

Vocalise? The vocal melody is pretty much according to the work's lead one...

Vocalese? The original is both an instrumental and a Jazz song...

Sounds like Vocalise to me.

Do you agree microtherion ?

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-12-14 17:36:23 UTC

I would treat that as Vocalise if it’s non-lyrical.

______
Mark

microtherion

Managing Editor
Posts: 416

microtherion @ 2020-12-15 15:50:43 UTC

I just added Cold Duck Time, which features instrumental(ized) non-verbal lead vocals by Les McCann. So, what kind of vocalxxx do others think this is?

This, to me, is quintessential scat: Vocal jazz, no lyrics, with quasi-instrumental percussive characteristics, and, in this case, actually singing pretty much singing the instrumental melody line as composed (though that is not a required element of scat).

Vocalese? The original is both an instrumental and a Jazz song...

Definitely not vocalese, as there are no lyrics. An example of a vocalese treatment of Cold Duck Time would be Cold Duck

microtherion

Managing Editor
Posts: 416

microtherion @ 2020-12-15 16:08:54 UTC

The reason for the distinction between "vocalise" and "scat" might be cultural as much as musical.

Fiddle vs. Violin?

Exactly!

Minimal Lyrics

We'd probably be gearing up for a major fight with the techno & crunk fans on where to draw the line on "minimal". 4 words?

Scat/Vocalise/Vocal Effects

Works for me.

Your artificial language examples seem to be a special case. How would we treat Klingon

That's a language, to me.

That language could be used for any song, but what of a work specific artificial language?

I believe Sigur Ros has created album specific artificial languages. But this would probably still be a language to me.

What of the previously referenced "ooga chaka"s?

That seems a vocal effect to me. Same with the meow mix jingle.

Another one which is skirting the line between language and vocal effect. I would come down on the side of "language", and I'm pleased to see that the editor who added this to our database made the same choice:

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-15 21:25:32 UTC

I would stick to referring to them as AllMusic...AMG is a rather common acronym and the site isn't well known by it either. Now Rate Your Music could be shortened to RYM is so desired.


Funny how things change with time:

AllMusic (previously known as All Music Guide and AMG)....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllMusic


Rather confident that I learned to refer to the source as AMG from SHS editors. In an SHS context, AMG should suffice as what else would it be?

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-15 21:47:32 UTC

The reason for the distinction between "vocalise" and "scat" might be cultural as much as musical.

Fiddle vs. Violin?

Exactly!


My "fiddle vs. violin" example is of identical things with different names due to context, use, etc. Your "exactly" response supports my position that we are wasting our time with immaterial (if not fictional) differences.


Minimal Lyrics

We'd probably be gearing up for a major fight with the techno & crunk fans on where to draw the line on "minimal". 4 words?


As explained before (though perhaps in related threads), "minimal lyrics" is a grey area filler. There doesn't need to be a definition, just good judgment.


Scat/Vocalise/Vocal Effects

Works for me.


Yeah! Since B appears to often skip or otherwise ignore my posts and since it's my understanding that you are the driving force behind this tag, I suggest that you clearly offer the revision to him directly.


Your artificial language examples seem to be a special case. How would we treat Klingon

That's a language, to me.

That language could be used for any song, but what of a work specific artificial language?

I believe Sigur Ros has created album specific artificial languages. But this would probably still be a language to me.

What of the previously referenced "ooga chaka"s?

That seems a vocal effect to me. Same with the meow mix jingle.

Another one which is skirting the line between language and vocal effect. I would come down on the side of "language" ....


I've put some additional thought into this artificial language business and eventually remembered the "independent significance" concept found in law. Klingon has independent significance from its use in any song sung in that language, as it was created for something unrelated. It exists outside of some musical work.


On the other hand, some otherwise vocal gibberish should remain gibberish whether or not the songwriter claims its a new language. Such a claimed artificial language would have no independent significance. At best, the artist is using his/her voice as an instrument and would receive a credit for the arrangement.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6507

camembert electrique @ 2020-12-16 13:31:43 UTC

I would stick to referring to them as AllMusic...AMG is a rather common acronym and the site isn't well known by it either. Now Rate Your Music could be shortened to RYM is so desired.

Funny how things change with time:

AllMusic (previously known as All Music Guide and AMG)....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllMusic

Rather confident that I learned to refer to the source as AMG from SHS editors. In an SHS context, AMG should suffice as what else would it be?

Let's stay with AllMusic, the name all editeirs know.