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Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5777

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-16 20:01:33 UTC

Just wondering... Who is to decide which is that "only 'definitive'" version? Based on which objective criteria?


I've addressed this several times. If there is reasonable dispute over which recording is definitive, then there likely is none. A work does not have to have a definitive recording, but if there is one, there's only one.


And can't an original be 'definitive'? If not, why not?


Yes, an original can and is likely the definitive recording of most works. The question is should originals be tagged as such. I say the original is by default definitive (if there is one) until and unless a cover takes that spot, so no tag is needed for originals. Using a real world example, does Dancing Queen need a "definitive" tag?


BTW, does the system prohibit more than one definitive tag per work. If not, it should.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6517

camembert electrique @ 2020-12-17 00:19:39 UTC

Just wondering... Who is to decide which is that "only 'definitive'" version? Based on which objective criteria?

I've addressed this several times. If there is reasonable dispute over which recording is definitive, then there likely is none. A work does not have to have a definitive recording, but if there is one, there's only one

And can't an original be 'definitive'? If not, why not?

Yes, an original can and is likely the definitive recording of most works. The question is should originals be tagged as such. I say the original is by default definitive (if there is one) until and unless a cover takes that spot, so no tag is needed for originals. Using a real world example, does Dancing Queen need a "definitive" tag?

BTW, does the system prohibit more than one definitive tag per work. If not, it should.

Probably, everybody who knows more than a few versions of a song will consider one of them the by far best, impossible to top etc. = 'definitive'...

To stay with "Dancing Queen": You may chose the original (if possible), I might not (until having listened to the most promising) versions, and someone else would go for yet another one

In those respects, the question might in the first place not be if to limit 'definitive' to one version per work, but if that tag really makes any sense - which it only would if there are objective classification criteria.

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5777

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-17 00:37:21 UTC

Probably, everybody who knows more than a few versions of a song will consider one of them the by far best, impossible to top etc. = 'definitive'...

To stay with "Dancing Queen": You may chose the original (if possible), I might not (until having listened to the most promising) versions, and someone else would go for yet another one

In those respects, the question might in the first place not be if to limit 'definitive' to one version per work, but if that tag really makes any sense - which it only would if there are objective classification criteria.


With due respect, you are not understanding the "definitive" concept. It does not mean "by far the best", "impossible to top", or even "good". In short, it means the recording/performance most associated with the work and will likely never be replaced as such in the foreseeable future.


If you can't see how and why the original "Dancing Queen" by ABBA is the definitive recording of that work, notwithstanding any personal preferences, then again you're failing to understand the concept.


Once the concept is understood, one can also understand that there will always be either no or a single definitive recording of a work,


walt

Editor
Posts: 5787

walt @ 2020-12-17 09:55:17 UTC

In those respects, the question might in the first place not be if to limit 'definitive' to one version per work, but if that tag really makes any sense - which it only would if there are objective classification criteria.


Request #227 to dump all grey zone tags

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5777

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-17 10:31:06 UTC

In those respects, the question might in the first place not be if to limit 'definitive' to one version per work, but if that tag really makes any sense - which it only would if there are objective classification criteria.


Request #227 to dump all grey zone tags


Explanation #227: If one understands "definitive", one then understands it's not really that grey.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6517

camembert electrique @ 2020-12-17 20:26:17 UTC

With due respect, you are not understanding the "definitive" concept....If you can't see how and why the original "Dancing Queen" by ABBA...

No reason to get close to insulting. Seemingly, you just didn't really get what I was saying, missed the humour in some parts and misinterpreted a hypothetic example.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6517

camembert electrique @ 2020-12-17 20:31:48 UTC

Explanation #227: If one understands "definitive", one then understands it's not really that grey.

Definitivus, Latin, literally 'down-finished' = set and valid for good and all.

Merriam-Webster's and others' synonyms for definitive: authoritative, exhaustive, irreversable, irrevocable, ultimate, specifying precisely, providing a final solution...

Need a Smile to that?

dany

Junior Editor
Posts: 4789

dany @ 2020-12-17 21:12:08 UTC

Por favor, haya paz.

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5777

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-17 21:12:15 UTC

With due respect, you are not understanding the "definitive" concept....If you can't see how and why the original "Dancing Queen" by ABBA...

No reason to get close to insulting. Seemingly, you just didn't really get what I was saying, missed the humour in some parts and misinterpreted a hypothetic example.


No insult was intended and perhaps I did miss some humor, but since I have repeatedly seen people confuse "definitive" with (e.g.) personal favorite I can be forgiven. Frankly, the concept isn't that difficult once the proverbial light bulb flickers on. Is there any doubt (i.e. an objective determination) that the following are all the definitive versions of the applicable work?

Mandy

Tainted Love

Girls Just Want to Have Fun

Mama Told Me (Not to Come)

Unchained Melody

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5777

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-17 21:19:44 UTC

Explanation #227: If one understands "definitive", one then understands it's not really that grey.

Definitivus, Latin, literally 'down-finished' = set and valid for good and all.

Merriam-Webster's and others' synonyms for definitive: authoritative, exhaustive, irreversable, irrevocable, ultimate, specifying precisely, providing a final solution...

Need a Smile to that?


I don't like absolutes, nor did I include any in my definition of "definitive" in the SHS context. I doubt you will find the SHS definition of "work" in any general dictionary for instance. As a practical matter, a current definitive recording's position as such can be safely assumed to never be reversed, revoked, etc. in the future; however, there's is always the possibility. As they say, records are made to be broken.


As another example, we have oodles of "first" releases and recordings, but there is always a possibility that we can find something earlier, actually I seem to regularly find and report them. A good faith "definitive" tag is far more likely to be accurate than the "first" tags we currently have.

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2020-12-17 21:24:38 UTC

Why do we have to have umpteen back and forth convos over “definitive” can we just let it go please. No one wins this argument and who cares truthfully. I assure you this convo won’t change the tags on the site so why bother.

______
Mark

dany

Junior Editor
Posts: 4789

dany @ 2020-12-17 21:26:32 UTC

En las cosas de la música, todo depende del oído del que escucha.


Oiga por favor, tradúzcame eso al inglés 😀

Last edit: 2020-12-17 21:33:40 UTC by dany

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5777

Tar Heel @ 2020-12-18 07:12:21 UTC

Why do we have to have umpteen back and forth convos over “definitive” can we just let it go please. No one wins this argument and who cares truthfully. I assure you this convo won’t change the tags on the site so why bother.


I admit I must have some Pavlovian tendencies. Smile


Anyway, one could say the same thing about the thread as a whole, as people have raised concerns about the homepage changes since Day 1 yet nothing happens.


I was advised (perhaps in this thread) to not file reports for missing vocalese, etc. tags even I knew one of the options was missing but couldn't understand the differences between the options. Similarly, if one doesn't understand "definitive", ignore the tag and don't use.


Frankly, I consider the definitive recording of a work, if there is one, the most important recording to have on site and so designated. At least top three with first release and first recording. The definitive recording is likely why the work is found in medleys and mashups. It's likely the reason there are as many subsequent covers of the work that there are and will be. It would also be the benchmark to determine "unusual". It's also likely the reason the song and covers are found in films and other pop culture.


To contrast with my position with the vocalese et. al. tags, I never advocated abandoning the concept entirety regardless of my opinion on usefulness, but rather arguing that having three options added high complexity for marginal value, suggesting combining into a single tag as a compromise. There really is no substitute that I can see for "definitive" other than some name change (e.g. "most famous", "most popular", "most well known"). The current "hit" and "more famous" come close, but the definitive recording may not have been a "hit" and there can be several hits and "more famous" of varying genres, arrangements, etc. There simply is no substitute.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 6517

camembert electrique @ 2020-12-18 09:52:41 UTC

....but since I have repeatedly seen people confuse "definitive" with (e.g.) personal favorite...

That was the reason I put that paragraph the way I did and to avoid that happening asked for an (objective) definition in order to avoid such misinterpretation...

Guess that's sorted, now.

walt

Editor
Posts: 5787

walt @ 2020-12-18 10:53:17 UTC

Request #227 to dump all grey zone tags


Explanation #227: If one understands "definitive", one then understands it's not really that grey.


There are 50 shades of grey and 50 ways to leave them out of our game Smile