Designation as "First release"

I am assuming that the "First Release" descriptor is auto-generated for whatever entry appears first for an adaption (unless manually adjusted), but perhaps we should reconsider this.

Does SHS want to claim to be an authority for such a designation when (I am doubting) exhaustive research has been not been completed in the vast majority of cases?

While I have run into many examples over the years, what eventually triggered this post was my looking at Save the Last Dance for Me .., specifically Saanhan viimeisen tanssin (currently first release 1977), when I have found at least one earlier and one concurrent release of this adaption. (Admittedly, being Finnish covers I am making an assumption that they are the same.)

First by Eino Grön on....

https://www.discogs.com/Eino-Gr%C3%B6n-Tangoserenadi/release/3876913

Second by Tapani Kansa on (wags finger for it being missed)....

Mistä rakkaus alkoi

https://www.discogs.com/Tapani-Kansa-Mist%C3%A4-Rakkaus-Alkoi/release/2307159

For what it's worth, I believe that the "First Release" and "First Recording" designations should only appear unless proper due diligence has been completed to confirm that information. For all other cases, appearing first on a list should suffice.

... Feel free to add the covers noted above, as they have not been officially submitted. Sheesh....

Quote from VirileVagabond

I am assuming that the "First Release" descriptor is auto-generated for whatever entry appears first for an adaption (unless manually adjusted), but perhaps we should reconsider this.

No, we have to tick a box to say "first release", same as we do for "first recording".

Quote from VirileVagabond

Does SHS want to claim to be an authority for such a designation when (I am doubting) exhaustive research has been not been completed in the vast majority of cases?

You are right, sometimes we are a bit too quick to tick the box. I would say it's an issue with 78s and transalations. I came across a 78 the other day and was thinking the same thing.

Quote from VirileVagabond

While I have run into many examples over the years, what eventually triggered this post was my looking at Save the Last Dance for Me .., specifically Saanhan viimeisen tanssin (currently first release 1977), when I have found at least one earlier and one concurrent release of this adaption. (Admittedly, being Finnish covers I am making an assumption that they are the same.)

First by Eino Grön on....

https://www.discogs.com/Eino-Gr%C3%B6n-Tangoserenadi/release/3876913

Second by Tapani Kansa on (wags finger for it being missed)....

Mistä rakkaus alkoi

https://www.discogs.com/Tapani-Kansa-Mist%C3%A4-Rakkaus-Alkoi/release/2307159

http://www.aanitearkisto.fi/firs2/en/index.php is a very good source for this kind of thing (Finnish recordings), but unfortunately it only goes up to 1999. It also takes a bit of working out how to navigate at first (it also uses real names for artists).

Here http://www.aanitearkisto.fi/firs2/en/kappale.php?Id=Saanhan+viimeisen+tanssin there are actually three artists (including Eino Grön) recording the Sauvo Puhtila translation in 1961. So, yes our 1977 version definitely isn't the first. However you can't tell from that page which one was first, as the three 1961 versions are listed in alphabetical order by artist. So I think that we also can't set a first release unless we have another source. The Tapani Kansa version appears to be a different translation by Chrisse Johansson, and it appears to be the only recording of that translation (up to 1999 at least).

Quote from VirileVagabond

For what it's worth, I believe that the "First Release" and "First Recording" designations should only appear unless proper due diligence has been completed to confirm that information. For all other cases, appearing first on a list should suffice.

That is what is supposed to happen! Please report errors if/when you find them.

Quote from VirileVagabond

... Feel free to add the covers noted above, as they have not been officially submitted. Sheesh....

Spiders' webs...

Bag... Are you saying that the translator credit on discogs for the Tapani Kansa cover is an error? I'm in no position to question either you or the source; I just want to correct my notes.

That arrangement is materially different, being more modern....

https://www.discogs.com/Tapani-Kansa-Mist%C3%A4-Rakkaus-Alkoi/release/2307159

Well... To be honest I didn't check discogs, I was thinking more about your "first release" points, and aanitearkisto is very good for that because it shows all the recordings on one page.

Well, there's obviously an error somewhere... I believe discogs says Saukki because it's on the record label, and Tapani Kansa's website also says Saukki, maybe for the same reason http://www.tapanikansa.fi/?page_id=163 . So I guess it seems reasonable to conclude that aanitearkisto is mistaken. I haven't investigated their sources. (I haven't looked for any videos to listen to either, I guess one could work out if the same lyrics are being sung in each one.)

Just shows, everything has to be checked...

Edit: I've removed the first release thing from the 1977 version.

Last edit: 2017-03-12 16:45:07 UTC by baggish

Revisiting this issue....

When a qualifier may be advisable when designating "First Release" or "First Recording", perhaps additional options are in order, namely "First Known Release", etc.?

Yes, that's a good idea.

And there are also cases where releases are literally simultaneous, or at least there's no way to find the "first".

This used to be the case for Sanremo Festival, where the following happened:

- Artist 1 records the song

- Artist 2 records the song

- Artist 1 and 2 performs the song, one after another (not a duet) at the Sanremo Festival

- Artist 1 and 2 release the song at the same time.

More often than not, there is no way to find out who recorded and performed the song first, and we only have the release date, so we're kind of forced to determine a first release...

Quote from Quentin

Yes, that's a good idea.

Q... I wonder why no other comments on this idea? Putting some more thought into the matter, perhaps three options:

a) First Release: Same as we have now, namely the opinion of SHS that the performance is the first release of a work without reasonable reservation or qualification.

b) First Known Release: Flag used when the editors suspect that there may be an earlier released performance, but none have been found. For instance an Italian adaption of a very famous work that wasn't released until years after the original.

c) Designated First Release: Flag used when the editors know that there are likely earlier or concurrently released performances. For instance some works credited to Traditional or when the earliest known performances are released in the same year.

Assuming the goal is to have some "First Release" flag under each work on site, those three seem to cover all the scenarios that I can imagine.

This is one of the issues that have been discussed, forgotten and discussed again over the years...

I'm not sure the goal is to have some "First Release" flag under each work; I'd like to think that our goal should be to have one "birth date" for each work. A date could be set for the work itself (composition, publication, copyright) or somehow inferred from one or more performance (first release or recording or performance).

For instance, the composition date of a VXII century symphony defines the work much more than its first release; the same could be said for traditional songs; by definition, the work predate its first recording (release), maybe the most accurate way to identify a traditional song is by its publication date, that is the moment when the song was "officially recognized" as such.

Obviously, a work can have more than one date (the more the better!) but no less than one

This is what I suggested last time we discussed the matter.

Hmmm, we seem to have stumbled upon the proverbial elephant at a blind man's zoo. I was approaching this matter from a visualization perspective and yours is more basic (for lack of a better word).

I short, I was thinking that the site would want all but the original original performance to have a covered artist to auto populate for visualization. Take Yesterday as an example. All English, Instrumental and "First Release" adaptions would show the covered artist as the Beatles. For non-English, non-first release covers, both the Beatles and the first (e.g.) Italian artist would show as the covered artists. Without a "First Release" flag, no covered artist shows.

You seem to looking at this from a history of the work perspective. My first question is how does one cover a work that has only be published but not yet recorded? It seems to me that composition, publication, copyright dates should be exclusive to the work, while recording and release dates are exclusive to performances (though attached up the tree to works).