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New Original/Cover Additions

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2017-12-21 15:38:28 UTC

I seem to have run into this situation several times recently, so I'm curious if there is some applicable best practice guideline for the editors:


The situation is where there is an open generic submission for a new original/cover(s) but an editor adds the original with a different cover. Assuming the editor found the existing submission, should a post be made to that thread to note the subsequent additions?


While I've experienced this situation several times, what triggered this inquiry is the example below:

The Imperial March

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/81157


It seems to me that the best practice would be that the editor would post to the existing submission that the original work, original performance, and any overlapping covers are now on site....

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26525

Bastien @ 2017-12-22 14:45:47 UTC

This is temporary situation, in the sense that once the submission form is adapted to also accept originals, the probability this situation occurs again will be very small.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2017-12-22 15:00:28 UTC

This is temporary situation, in the sense that once the submission form is adapted to also accept originals, the probability this situation occurs again will be very small.


The described upgrade may address this situation for subsequent new originals, but I doubt it would apply to all the then existing submissions of new originals. Will the upgrade somehow convert all of the existing generics to the new form?

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26525

Bastien @ 2017-12-22 15:37:22 UTC

That hasn't been discussed. But when you think about it, I could see it happening for the submissions where the credits are database objects, like in your Imperial March example.

VirileVagabond

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Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2017-12-23 20:39:48 UTC

That hasn't been discussed. But when you think about it, I could see it happening for the submissions where the credits are database objects, like in your Imperial March example.


This seems to leave the original question open, namely is there or should there be an editor guideline to post to existing new original/cover(s) submissions when the original but not all of the cover(s) are subsequently added?


Even if the submission form is updated, there will be likely thousands of open generic submissions to be addressed....

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2017-12-28 02:02:52 UTC

Another suggestion for existing new original submissions as of the date of the planned upgrade:


I went looking for my original submission for Romeo's Tune ..., but it no longer returns since it is now closed and neither the original nor any of the submitted covers include a link to that post. I would suggest that the editors be allowed to manually add a link to those posts to serve the same purpose as the auto-generated link in normal cover submissions.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26525

Bastien @ 2017-12-28 16:52:48 UTC

Which submission are you referring to?

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2017-12-28 16:56:33 UTC

Which submission are you referring to?


As stated above, I can no longer find it via the standard search function. Moreover, since it was a generic new original/cover(s), there is no auto-generated link attached to the work or performances. That leaves a needle in my personal submission haystack.


My suggestion would serve as a temporary solution until the upgrade you described earlier....



Had to search via the filters, re-order the list, and then scroll down until I spotted it. This seems far too cumbersome:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/65198

Last edit: 2017-12-28 17:09:43 UTC by VirileVagabond

VirileVagabond

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Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2018-01-20 06:02:14 UTC

Returning to my original question, namely how should an editor handle when they add a new original that has already been submitted, but doesn't add the (or all of the) previously submitted covers? This assumes that the editor found the existing submission....


I return due to:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/65269


walt added the new original, and since he's an active, experienced editor, I assume that he likely missed it or perhaps didn't do anything with it since a) there are no overlapping covers and b) there are no existing guidelines.


I again suggest that an editor post a summary of their activity on the existing thread to note the subsequent relevant additions. This issue will most likely persist for existing generic submissions even after the anticipated upgrade to replace the current form.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26525

Bastien @ 2018-01-29 10:58:42 UTC

(...) but doesn't add the (or all of the) previously submitted covers? (...)

Apart from their own submissions that stem from their pre-editor days, editors don't have any obligation to process submissions.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2018-01-29 15:45:08 UTC

(...) but doesn't add the (or all of the) previously submitted covers? (...)

Apart from their own submissions that stem from their pre-editor days, editors don't have any obligation to process submissions.


Some things seem to be lost in translation. First, there can be contingent obligations. For instance: an editor doesn't have to process third party submissions, but if they do they must be processed in xyz fashion. An editor doesn't have to add new originals or covers, but if they do they must.....


Second, a "guideline" is different from a "rule". A guideline is a suggestion or best practice. A rule is a requirement or mandate. Should vs. must.


Third, a detailed example in real SHS life: Say DB wants to add the new original "The Salt In My Tears" by Martin Briley and a cover by William Hung (his secret favorite singer). Searching SHS he finds an open generic submission:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/65134


DB thinks to himself, "I hate Randy Meisner ..." (not to mention that VV guy), so he adds the new original and the cover by Hung. What should he (or be required to) do with the existing submission? Should he revise it by noting "original onsite"? Should he be required to make such a revision/thread post?

walt

Editor
Posts: 4978

walt @ 2018-01-29 16:51:30 UTC

DB thinks to himself, "I hate Randy Meisner ..." (not to mention that VV guy), so he adds the new original and the cover by Hung. What should he (or be required to) do with the existing submission? Should he revise it by noting "original onsite"? Should he be required to make such a revision/thread post?


He/She should do nothing. In the Evanescence case, I looked up your sub afterwards when mentioned in a thread somewhere. Though perfectly legit, I wasn't seduced on adding them, sorry... I try to stay away from gregorian buddha bars with vitamin string quartets as much as possible. Smile

baggish

Editor
Posts: 3387

I love SHS!

baggish @ 2018-01-29 16:55:58 UTC

Assuming the editor found the existing submission

Searching SHS he finds an open generic submission:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/65134

Hi VV, I'm afraid you're making some assumptions here that probably aren't correct. Editors add new works all the time. Unfortunately they/we don't always search for submissions when we do so. So, if there's no revision made, the likely reason is that the editor doesn't know that the submission exists.

______
Really wild, General!

VirileVagabond

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Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2018-01-29 17:16:55 UTC

He/She should do nothing. In the Evanescence case, I looked up your sub afterwards when mentioned in a thread somewhere. Though perfectly legit, I wasn't seduced on adding them, sorry... I try to stay away from gregorian buddha bars with vitamin string quartets as much as possible. Smile


I disagree. While the editor should have no obligation to add the previously submitted covers (I never claimed that), they should (as a best practice) note that the original is now on site. Doing nothing makes me question whether the earlier generic was found at all. Moreover, another editor may have had an interest in the covers but didn't want to research the original (e.g. a classical work). Such a revision might generate more activity.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2018-01-29 17:21:51 UTC

Hi VV, I'm afraid you're making some assumptions here that probably aren't correct. Editors add new works all the time. Unfortunately they/we don't always search for submissions when we do so. So, if there's no revision made, the likely reason is that the editor doesn't know that the submission exists.


My best practice suggestion has always included "assuming the previous submission was found". Nevertheless, surely it is established policy to look first. If not, there should be. I understand a contributor missing them or perhaps when a search returns 20+ items or the song title changes, but I have higher expectations of editors.

walt

Editor
Posts: 4978

walt @ 2018-01-30 06:57:56 UTC

While the editor should have no obligation to add the previously submitted covers (I never claimed that), they should (as a best practice) note that the original is now on site.


This part I agree. Will do in the future!

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3878

VirileVagabond @ 2019-07-08 20:46:18 UTC

Returning to this thread upon revisiting:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/65090


It appears to me that either an editor didn't find the existing submission or didn't bother to look. Granted, searching "Goodbye To You" currently returns 20+ contributions, searching for "Scandal" currently returns an easily manageable 10 contributions, two of which are relevant (mine plus a duplicate).


I would think that the editors want the site to be as clean as possible (i.e. avoiding and clearing duplicates, especially legacy originals) and would be expected to exert reasonable efforts in looking for existing relevant submissions prior to adding an entry from "whole cloth".


Also, while I do not expect an editor to process such an original submission if not also adding any applicable cover, I do expect that the editor update that original submission to reflect that the original work/performance is now on site.


Are these expectations unreasonable?




An example that should have been even easier to find:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/94152


Err, searching for "Sugar On My Tongue" prior to addition should have resulted in a single return:

https://secondhandsongs.com/case/65308

Last edit: 2019-07-08 21:07:21 UTC by VirileVagabond

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26525

Bastien @ 2019-07-13 16:13:31 UTC

Nevertheless, surely it is established policy to look first.

This makes sense, but then we should also help the editors by integrating this aspect better in their workflow.