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Time Is On My Side Adaptions

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VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-21 00:19:04 UTC

Am I to understand that all of the non-English adaptions of Time Is on My Side are versions of the original root work and not the derivative made famous by the Stones? This seems doubtful to me, but this is how I read how things as setup on site....

Oldiesmann

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Oldiesmann @ 2018-03-21 00:54:48 UTC

Yes, that's how things work. It doesn't always make much sense unfortunately.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-21 02:25:18 UTC

Yes, that's how things work. It doesn't always make much sense unfortunately.


No, sometimes we code to show as an adaption of an adaption. While there certainly is a chance that all of these are directly from the root work, I have my doubts as originally noted.

Oldiesmann

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Oldiesmann @ 2018-03-21 04:01:50 UTC

I understand completely. I ran into that issue recently with a German adaptation of "Yellow Bird". I added it as an adaptation of "Yellow Bird" because it says "(Yellow Bird)" on the label and it was obviously written following the popularity of "Yellow Bird", but was told it was to be added as an adaptation of the root work instead per guidelines:


ADAPTATIONS IN OTHER LANGUAGES

  • By default an adaptation in a new language is linked to the root work
  • Except if the subject of the lyrics are very close to another adaptation, and remarkably different from the root work.
    • Example: A mi manera by Augusto Algueró [Jr.] is an adaptation of the Paul Anka adaptation My Way as it's about leading your life the way you want (=Paul Anka lyrics), and not about a couple that is falling apart (=Claude François lyrics).
  • When the editor choses to link the adaptation and not the root work, an explanatory comment is required in the editor notes.
  • When in doubt: Make it an adaptation of the root work.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-21 04:56:21 UTC

I discussed this question in depth here: https://secondhandsongs.com/topic/73599


For this particular case, clearly the Stones version is different enough from the root work to justify a branch in the song's family tree (assuming very different lyrics). When something like this happens, then there are likely adaptions of an adaption when that derivative work is somewhat definitive.

Oldiesmann

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Oldiesmann @ 2018-03-21 06:42:30 UTC

I'm aware of those types of adaptations as well. I added the German version of "Passion Flower" recently, which was a popular 1950s song based on Beethoven's Für Elise.


I just misunderstood your original post which is why I posted what I did Smile

Last edit: 2018-03-21 06:50:42 UTC by Oldiesmann

walt

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walt @ 2018-03-24 15:44:12 UTC

Am I to understand that all of the non-English adaptions of Time Is on My Side are versions of the original root work and not the derivative made famous by the Stones?


Yes, this is correct all over. Now, the Stones version of 'The Last Time' that would and is a different story (= far from the root work).

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-24 16:10:05 UTC

Am I to understand that all of the non-English adaptions of Time Is on My Side are versions of the original root work and not the derivative made famous by the Stones?


Yes, this is correct all over. Now, the Stones version of 'The Last Time' that would and is a different story (= far from the root work).


You clearly have more standing than I on this question, but I don't but it. Per the current SHS coding, there's not a single English cover of the original English root work but there are lots of covers of the English adaption made famous by the Stones. Somehow all of the non-English adaptions are of the root and not the Stones?


Most likely it's another visualization problem.

walt

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walt @ 2018-03-24 17:42:41 UTC

Most likely it's another visualization problem.


No, it's not. Of course, these foreign groups imitate the Stones, but that's not the point: all musical elements of these covers are in the root work.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-24 18:02:04 UTC

Most likely it's another visualization problem.


No, it's not. Of course, these foreign groups imitate the Stones, but that's not the point: all musical elements of these covers are in the root work.


If they were instrumentals maybe. Since I'm not familiar with the root work, what made the Stones version different enough to justify new adaption treatment? I would assume completely new lyrics. What are the lyrics of the non-English adaptions? Are they based on the root lyrics or the new set made famous by the Stones?


If not the lyrics, what made the music different enough for new adaption treatment? Regarding the music of the non-English adaptions, are these based on the root or closer to the Stones?


While these situations aren't common on site, they aren't rare either.

walt

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walt @ 2018-03-25 14:21:00 UTC

If they were instrumentals maybe. Since I'm not familiar with the root work, what made the Stones version different enough to justify new adaption treatment? I would assume completely new lyrics. What are the lyrics of the non-English adaptions? Are they based on the root lyrics or the new set made famous by the Stones?


The root work is one click away (see YT), also you're completely ignoring the older version by Irma Thomas throughout this discussion.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-25 16:09:54 UTC

If they were instrumentals maybe. Since I'm not familiar with the root work, what made the Stones version different enough to justify new adaption treatment? I would assume completely new lyrics. What are the lyrics of the non-English adaptions? Are they based on the root lyrics or the new set made famous by the Stones?


The root work is one click away (see YT), also you're completely ignoring the older version by Irma Thomas throughout this discussion.


a) I don't actually care about the root work; I'm assuming that the separate adaption treatment of the Stones version by SHS is correct; and I wouldn't know the lyrics of the non-English versions anyway.


b) I used the phrase "made famous by" the Stones (or something to that effect) and later shortened to the Stones for convenience.


c) My questions were not answered.

Bastien

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Bastien @ 2018-03-26 14:38:11 UTC

all musical elements of these covers are in the root work.

Yes, that's the idea.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-26 15:13:04 UTC

all musical elements of these covers are in the root work.

Yes, that's the idea.


Of course, which is why I am not questing all of the entries being covers or derivatives. I'm questioning having all of the non-English performances coded as adaptions of the root work rather than of the adaption made famous by the Stones. Something seems to be lost in translation here.

walt

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walt @ 2018-03-26 16:32:49 UTC

Something seems to be lost in translation here.


Nothing is lost. I understand your reasoning clearly. I repeat: Of course, these foreign groups imitate the Stones, but that's not the point:


All musical elements (which means: the melody line of the vocal, regardless the language) of these covers are already in the root work.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-26 16:58:14 UTC

Something seems to be lost in translation here.


Nothing is lost. I understand your reasoning clearly. I repeat: Of course, these foreign groups imitate the Stones, but that's not the point:


All musical elements (which means: the melody line of the vocal, regardless the language) of these covers are already in the root work.


"Imitate" means styling and arrangement to me, not necessarily the lyrics, so no need to repeat.


I will repeat tho, if the as made famous by the Stones "Time" is different enough to justify separate adaption treatment ("musical elements" and all) and the non-English adaptions are most likely translations of that version (lyrics, "musical elements" and all), shouldn't those non-English adaptions be treated as third generation adaptions (a term I just made up) of the Stones second generation adaption?


As I've discussed elsewhere, My Way and You Don't Have to Say You Love Me are English adaptions with completely independent lyrics from the non-English originals. Wouldn't (say) a Spanish translation of "My Way" be a third generation adaption rather than a second generation adaption of the first generation root work?


I suppose we are just going round and round here with no one convincing the other. I generally defer to the SHS position on matters, but not for these situations.

walt

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walt @ 2018-03-26 17:37:57 UTC

I suppose we are just going round and round here with no one convincing the other. I generally defer to the SHS position on matters, but not for these situations.


The reason we're going round and round, is that you don't want to be convinced apparently. You're fixated on the Stones version, which well may be the definitive version and the source of millions of covers, but:


it's not important in terms of passing on the essential musical elements of this song


In other words, the Stones did not change the song in a way that would cause a new adaptation.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-26 18:18:49 UTC

I suppose we are just going round and round here with no one convincing the other. I generally defer to the SHS position on matters, but not for these situations.


The reason we're going round and round, is that you don't want to be convinced apparently. You're fixated on the Stones version, which well may be the definitive version and the source of millions of covers, but:


it's not important in terms of passing on the essential musical elements of this song


In other words, the Stones did not change the song in a way that would cause a new adaptation.


Then why its it on site as a new adaption?


Time Is on My Side ... root work


Time Is on My Side ... as made famous by the Stones

walt

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walt @ 2018-03-27 11:40:55 UTC

Then why its it on site as a new adaption?


Time Is on My Side ... root work


Time Is on My Side ... as made famous by the Stones


The adaptation (first performed by Irma Thomas, why do you keep ignoring her?) is caused by the extra lyrics not present in the root work.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2018-03-27 13:22:39 UTC

Then why its it on site as a new adaption?


Time Is on My Side ... root work


Time Is on My Side ... as made famous by the Stones


The adaptation (first performed by Irma Thomas, why do you keep ignoring her?) is caused by the extra lyrics not present in the root work.


Which brings us to the crux. Do the non-English adaptions have translated or inspired lyrics that also include the "extra lyrics" that justified making the Stones version a different adaption?


Why do you keep referencing Irma Thomas and keep ignoring "as made famous by" (or something to that effect after I have explained already? Most people would be most familiar with these works (and would have an interest in this question) due to the Stones recording; therefore, I present the issues in that light for convenience.