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Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-05-21 07:52:02 UTC

... A definitive performance is determined by far more objective means.

Which are the objective parameters for defining a certain version as a definitive one?

Definitive is partially objective, partially subjective. Let's not waste our time discussing which aspect is dominant. Let's simply manage based it on popularity. For example: Tag displayed for the entry that has most votes. And yes, editors can have double votes Smile

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-05-21 07:54:58 UTC

To me, "definitive" is much more of a "reasonable people can disagree" tag; it's inherently subjective, and can tell you more about the background of the taggers, than the release itself.

Which is another argument that Definitive should probably evolve from on/off-tag to popularity-based-tag.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-05-21 07:58:32 UTC

Discussing & rating music is definitely not what I'm here for.

... and that is perfectly fine.

I can't be more clear than this Smile

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1120

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2019-05-21 10:41:25 UTC

It seems very odd to me that Sophie Tucker's performance/release of "Some of These Days" is not "highlighted" -- some how, some way.

Some of These Days

Why is it worth highlighting?


She introduced it and the song was intimately associated with her as her "theme song" for decades.

______
JC

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4665

It must schwing! (Alfred Lion, co-founder of Blue Note)

camembert electrique @ 2019-05-22 00:23:30 UTC

How one can complain about a subjective tag while this database suffers much bigger issues (like the fact not being able to even document the EXISTANCE of a cover just because the release year or a cat# is missing) goes beyond common sense.

Hi Jens, that takes us a little/completely off-topic Smile

Should there be an according new thread, I'll be more than happy to transfer this comment over there...

I agree that there are more relevant issues than constantly adding new features probably not beneficial to the database as such. Concentrating on improving database functionalities, instead, may make more sense.

Nobody denies the existance of a cover version because of a missing release date or lacking cat. no. But, to keep up high qualitiy and credibility of the database, sticking to core data is mandatory - and, as known, there are mostly parameters one can use without falsifying (f. ex., release years can often be derived from cat. #s etc.).

Without such data, cover versions, if at all, could only be listed - but not documented based on evidence or hard facts. Understanding this may indeed simply be a matter of being rational. Even much more simplified sites like https://cover.info seem to comprehend this to quite an extend.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4665

It must schwing! (Alfred Lion, co-founder of Blue Note)

camembert electrique @ 2019-05-22 00:35:51 UTC

"Discussing & rating music is definitely not what I'm here for."

--Walt, 05/20.

Me, neither.

I don't mind at all discussing music, but I'd appreciate a lot if there was a halt to attempts to restructure SHS to fit individual perspectives.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3870

VirileVagabond @ 2019-05-22 00:48:05 UTC

Re: Documenting the existence of a cover... That issue is likely my most stubborn windmill that I have fought over and over. Obviously management has already and consistently decided that removing these from this list for cleanliness is more important that completeness.


RE: Whether new feature beneficial or not. The answer to that question is obviously in the eyes and ears of the beholder. I don't care about cat and all of the other numbers attached to works, performances, etc. but clearly this is considered essential to the editors.


Glancing back to the titled of this thread for a compass, what would a group of average users of this site want to see as highlighted performances? While there would likely be no 100% agreement, I would think the first release (not recording), the definitive performance (if any), and the editors' picks (i.e. suggestions).

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4665

It must schwing! (Alfred Lion, co-founder of Blue Note)

camembert electrique @ 2019-05-22 01:35:54 UTC

...All I see is a lot of work for all of us.

Like I said, this is Bastien & Mathieu's project, they have to rethink and decide what direction they want to take.

Editors for good reasons not using (most of) the tabs won't really face much additional work. There would be a substantial amount of extra to spend, though, if we were notified about others' tabbing our entries, which would lead to lots of double-checking...

Yes, Bastien (seemingly the official owner) and Mathieu (the genius programmer) run SHS. But we, the editors, voluntarily dedicating lots our spare time on researching and adding content, are the ones who fill the site with live.

In that respect, it may be discussed if the sole decision about which way to go should lay with the two brothers without including knowledgable editors. This also as Bastien every now and then emphasizes the democratic decision making.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3870

VirileVagabond @ 2019-05-22 02:46:18 UTC

Editors for good reasons not using (most of) the tabs won't really face much additional work. There would be a substantial amount of extra to spend, though, if we were notified about others' tabbing our entries, which would lead to lots of double-checking...


I am sympathetic to this concern, which I why I have suggested that tags be few/concise and that authority to tag be limited (i.e. not any user). All users can rate but not flag.


With that said, I can see where there might be a flood at the start for tags like "live" but most would be rarer and the double-checking should be light after the initial implementation....

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3870

VirileVagabond @ 2019-06-09 15:42:53 UTC

I dislike the "more famous than original" since other tags fill this need in my view and there could be cases where all covers are "more famous" than a really obscure original. Anyway, the "more famous" tag should be a lessor included tag of "definitive" so that the system doesn't allow for both. Example: Hallelujah

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1120

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2019-06-09 20:03:00 UTC

I have wondered how to determine/measure whether one performance is "more famous" than another.

______
JC

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-06-23 07:22:20 UTC

It seems very odd to me that Sophie Tucker's performance/release of "Some of These Days" is not "highlighted" -- some how, some way.

Some of These Days

Why is it worth highlighting?

She introduced it and the song was intimately associated with her as her "theme song" for decades.

Is there currently any tag that matches this description?

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-06-23 07:27:11 UTC

I dislike the "more famous than original" since other tags fill this need in my view and there could be cases where all covers are "more famous" than a really obscure original. Anyway, the "more famous" tag should be a lessor included tag of "definitive" so that the system doesn't allow for both. Example: Hallelujah

On the contrary, tags offer the flexibility to be partially overlapping. So, the system should accept both.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-06-23 07:29:45 UTC

I have wondered how to determine/measure whether one performance is "more famous" than another.

You'd have to organize a nation-wide census Smile

But seriously, depends who you asks I guess. Up to the editors & CC's to make the call.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3870

VirileVagabond @ 2019-06-23 07:51:08 UTC

I dislike the "more famous than original" since other tags fill this need in my view and there could be cases where all covers are "more famous" than a really obscure original. Anyway, the "more famous" tag should be a lessor included tag of "definitive" so that the system doesn't allow for both. Example: Hallelujah

On the contrary, tags offer the flexibility to be partially overlapping. So, the system should accept both.


On the contrary, "lessor included" does not mean "overlap". For instance all squares are rectangles but not vice versa. A "definitive" recording would always be "more famous than the original" but not vice versa.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4665

It must schwing! (Alfred Lion, co-founder of Blue Note)

camembert electrique @ 2019-06-23 12:23:59 UTC

To stay with Hallelujah: That's indeed a very good example.

Meanings for 'definitive' taken from dictionairies: 'final', 'irrevocable', 'ultimate' etc., in other words: (the) non-plus-ultra, most superior, most perfect.

So, why should that version be (the) 'definitive'? Without some kind of parameters, that's a pure matter of personal preferences rather than of serious evaluation. Many would, f. ex., name Hallelujah or Hallelujah or Hallelujah - not to talk about Hallelujah.

Which takes us to the next point... How to prove Buckley's version to be more famous than the original'? There would only be few possibilities. Some of those: a worldwide census Smile, verified worldwide sales figures or evidence for worldwide airplay.

walt

Editor
Posts: 4978

walt @ 2019-06-24 09:17:28 UTC

This thread speaks for itself: an endless discussion.


We should keep the subjective "picks" and the objective ones (hits, etc). All grey zone tags in the dustbin, please. Close thread. Implement. Done.


IMHO, it is crucial that our database looks reliable, at first glance even. And I mean that very literally. Its success depends on it. I still believe, the "unverified" business was a step back from that. The "highlighting" business, the way it is now going, will be another one.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 26523

Bastien @ 2019-06-28 13:43:39 UTC

what would a group of average users of this site want to see as highlighted performances?

Thís is what we should be discussing about.