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Mathieu

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Mathieu @ 2019-03-03 20:31:48 UTC

I was thinking of merging originals and highlights into one tab, since being an original is also worthy of being highlighted. Just not sure how the layouts could be combined in case of adaptations.

Bastien

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Bastien

Bastien @ 2019-03-03 20:33:17 UTC

3. Do we really still need "I Feel Lucky"?

One at random, sure, why not. Who knows what will come up! I'm in favour of a little bit of surprise Smile

sebcat

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sebcat @ 2019-03-03 20:37:52 UTC

2) The "Editor's Pick", I see once an editor picks it another editor can't do the same. Or you can't undo it, if you picked it yourself.

Agree. I'd like to see those user-specific in the future.

This would work well for "editor's picks" - those performances with the greatest number of editor "votes" could be highlighted more often.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2019-03-03 22:58:45 UTC

Since "definitive" was my idea, I should say that a definitive performance shouldn't be in dispute (allowing for some small minority objections). "Definitive" doesn't mean best but rather the performance that put the work on the map resulting in most (if not all) the subsequent covers/adaptions. Usually the most well known recording.


For instance To All the Girls I've Loved Before is the definitive performance of To All the Girls I've Loved Before …. I recently had an editor wonder to me why there were so many covers around 1984-85, with me reminding him of that release.


In my view, there can only be one definitive performance but the tag is not necessary if the original is definitive.

David King

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Someone who has the odd habit of collecting non-English covers of English language songs.

David King @ 2019-03-04 02:28:41 UTC

I like the suggestion to revamp the "Editors' Pick". I've refrained from using it myself, though. People would probably roll their eyes if I picked one of the non-English adaptations I've been adding.

Let's keep the "I Feel Lucky" feature. I don't mind a little surprise, and it can give an obscure artist a little exposure.

Jeff Chamberlain

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Jeff Chamberlain @ 2019-03-04 03:04:41 UTC

VV, I hope you're right (and I think you are) that "definitive" shouldn't be controversial in most cases. However, I wonder if the definition you've suggested will really work as universally as I'd like.


Take, for example, Hound Dog. I suppose the Elvis Presley version "put the song on the map," influenced the most later performances, and is the best-known recording. Is that sufficient to characterize it as the "definitive" performance? (I hope not. It's trite and silly, after all....)


Is it possible for a song to have more than one "definitive" version, as if, for example, a song was defined by one performance for some years and then changed significantly because of a different, later performance? Consider Breaking Up Is Hard to Do. The original, fast version or some later slow version (and if the latter, which one)? Or Light My Fire -- The Doors' original or Jose Feliciano's later slow version? More historically, the 1945 Frank Sinatra version of Try a Little Tenderness really set the tone of performances of that song for ~20 years, after which Otis Redding's version became the standard for almost all later performances. A similar question might be asked about Glenn Miller and Etta James and At Last


Also, I hope everyone agrees that not all songs have "definitive" performances.


Finally, I have nothing against the various "highlights" provoking discussion, but where will these discussions take place and to what end? For example, this 1965 release (of a 1958 song) is highlighted as "recent." I don't think that makes much sense, but if all this is just "subjective" then I don't suppose it's an error. Tell the Truth

Last edit: 2019-03-04 03:20:16 UTC by Jeff Chamberlain

______
JC

Bastien

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Bastien @ 2019-03-04 05:01:35 UTC

a definitive performance shouldn't be in dispute

A definitive performance will be less in dispute, but still in dispute. See Jeff's remarks about non-universality.

Bastien

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Bastien

Bastien @ 2019-03-04 05:02:39 UTC

People would probably roll their eyes if I picked one of the non-English adaptations I've been adding.

I'm looking forward to see people (digitally) roll their eyes... don't be shy! Smile

Bastien

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Bastien

Bastien @ 2019-03-04 05:04:41 UTC

I was thinking of merging originals and highlights into one tab, since being an original is also worthy of being highlighted. Just not sure how the layouts could be combined in case of adaptations.

I see the point (what they have in common), but I'm a bit uncomfortable with losing a tab that is called "Originals". It's so essential to our reason of being.

Bastien

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Bastien

Bastien @ 2019-03-04 05:06:23 UTC

For example, this 1965 release (of a 1958 song) is highlighted as "recent." I don't think that makes much sense, but if all this is just "subjective" then I don't suppose it's an error. Tell the Truth

Good catch. "Recent" is displaying the most recent version, which is 1965 in your case. I'll file a Trac ticket to limit the recent highlight to versions of the past 10 years.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2019-03-04 05:07:03 UTC

JF... I originally suggested different categories of definitive. Where there would only be one "definitive performance" there could be several performances that would be a "definitive arrangement", the later would apply to many of your examples.


As for Elvis' "Hound Dog", I would say it is the definitive performance. This term doesn't mean best (or even good) or personal favorite.


And no (yes?), not all works would have a definitive performance. Some works on site are little known.


I had assumed that "recent" in the "Highlights" tab means recently added/processed on site. I never use this tab.

Bastien

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Bastien

Bastien @ 2019-03-04 05:08:52 UTC

Also, I hope everyone agrees that not all songs have "definitive" performances.

Sure. And if nobody tags a version as definitive, no definitive version will be displayed.

SlimD

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SlimD @ 2019-03-04 06:04:58 UTC

Read.

walt

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walt @ 2019-03-04 10:08:37 UTC

Read and let's see how this goes...


I have always objected to "definitive" and still am. We really should drop that one. The versions that put a song "on the map" will be highlighted anyway (a hit, editor's pick, ...), so don't worry VV.


A tag should either be very subjective or very objective. The problem with "definitive" is that it's something of both.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2019-03-04 16:07:27 UTC

The versions that put a song "on the map" will be highlighted anyway (a hit, editor's pick, ...)


"Hit" is a lessor tag than "definitive" and why would an editor waste a pick on a hit or other well-known performance? After trying to imagine how I would see things in my perfect SHS world, consider....


Some popular film includes a version of Hooked on a Feeling by some it artist of the day. A young fan of the film takes an interest in the song and finds their way to that work's Versions tab. There they discover that the song goes all the way back to 1968 by some guy named B.J. and had already been covered by numerous artists and in several languages. Also (in my imaginary SHS world) there were be a column which flags some of them as of particular interest, namely a recording by Blue Swede as a definitive arrangement and a few picks by the editors to highlight recommendations by the staff.


I couldn't readily think of a work with a definitive performance other than the original and a definitive arrangement.


I had this concept in mind for some time, but I believe what ultimately triggered my public recommendation was an article detailing the history of Ruby, Don't Take Your Love to Town ….

https://www.steynonline.com/8386/ruby-dont-take-your-love-to-town

Last edit: 2019-03-04 16:42:06 UTC by VirileVagabond

Bastien

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Bastien

Bastien @ 2019-03-04 16:37:36 UTC

I have always objected to "definitive" and still am. We really should drop that one.

The tags are fairly new. We should be open to adding or removing some in the months to come, based on our experience with them.

SlimD

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SlimD @ 2019-03-04 16:39:02 UTC

I agree with Walt concerning "definitive." I believe the definitive version of a song is a matter of opinion in many cases.

Even if we agree on what is the definitive version, in some cases our guidelines do not permit us to include it. For example, there are many instances where an artist made an obscure recording for a small label and later made a new hit version for a major label. We only include the obscure original.

VirileVagabond

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VirileVagabond @ 2019-03-04 16:52:40 UTC

I agree with Walt concerning "definitive." I believe the definitive version of a song is a matter of opinion in many cases.


When there is reasonable dispute, there would not be a definitive performance.


Even if we agree on what is the definitive version, in some cases our guidelines do not permit us to include it. For example, there are many instances where an artist made an obscure recording for a small label and later made a new hit version for a major label. We only include the obscure original.


Why does not including the definitive performance on site matter? This info (while likely not using that term) is often included in the comments (I Am Woman comes to mind). The only situation I can imagine that would cause such a d-performance to be added on site is due to sampling. Examples of your situation that come to mind are Surrender and Show Me the Way (both cases where a later live recording is clearly definitive).

sebcat

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sebcat @ 2019-03-04 20:08:31 UTC

Read and let's see how this goes...

I have always objected to "definitive" and still am. We really should drop that one. The versions that put a song "on the map" will be highlighted anyway (a hit, editor's pick, ...), so don't worry VV.

I also like the “hit song” tag and would like that one included in the Highlights tab. I suggested this yesterday. Bastien/Mathieu - what do you think?