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DashBoardDJ856

Editor
Posts: 1711

DashBoardDJ856 @ 2019-05-15 19:10:07 UTC

I'm in maryhelen's corner if I have her permission to be in it.

Bastien & Mathieu should revisit their original mission statement for the site and decide where they want to go with it before anything gets too out of hand for us to handle.

There are probably less than 10 editors who come in here each week and dedicate their time to keep the site up and going. Luckily we also have some pretty amazing certified contributors that also help clean up things and keep us on our toes.

We have growing pains, but do we have the resources to help get us there without compromising the site.

______
“Let me be clear about this: I don’t have a drug problem, I have a police problem.”― Keith Richards

dudek

Editor
Posts: 324

I love SHS!

dudek @ 2019-05-15 21:06:34 UTC

I'm quite surprised at such dramatic words. It seems to me like much ado about nothing. SHS is not being wrecked, there is no doomsday scenario, nothing threatens the credibility of the site IMHO. It's just adding new features. Whoever wants to use them, let him enjoy them. And the one who wants to concentrate on the facts, doesn't have to pay attention to these features.


There's no need to have a winning faction and the losing faction. Both factions can spend their time here together, I think. Music is the main thing that unites us, if I'm not mistaken. Hence, it should not separate us.

DashBoardDJ856

Editor
Posts: 1711

DashBoardDJ856 @ 2019-05-15 21:58:18 UTC

Something must have gotten screwed up in the translation!

______
“Let me be clear about this: I don’t have a drug problem, I have a police problem.”― Keith Richards

maryhelen

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1391

maryhelen @ 2019-05-15 22:21:07 UTC

DashBoardDJ856 yes of course-


and as i was reading the comment, dudek's, i thought he's misunderstanding the whole thing


dudek- did u ead every single one of the comments on this issue-- thee are a lot-- it sounds like NOT

CarlDennis

Editor
Posts: 2129

CarlDennis @ 2019-05-16 01:20:42 UTC

Emphasized

I'm quite surprised at such dramatic words. It seems to me like much ado about nothing. SHS is not being wrecked, there is no doomsday scenario, nothing threatens the credibility of the site IMHO. It's just adding new features. Whoever wants to use them, let him enjoy them. And the one who wants to concentrate on the facts, doesn't have to pay attention to these features.

Twelve points for the Czech Republic! Douze points pour Jan Štěpánek! Thanks, Dudek, for the wise words in your comment. I agree with your diagnosis: Much Ado about Nothing.

And I would add to that: the slight hysteria and exaggeration in this thread are actually rather amusing and sometimes outright funny to an "objective" observer like me.

Oh, in Dutch I would write hysterische ondertoon en overdrijving. In Czech: mírná hysterie a nadsázka..........

Nothing lost in translation here, I hope.

Kind regards from The Netherlands and can we now have the votes from Brussels?

Thom

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4640

It must schwing...

camembert electrique @ 2019-05-16 01:51:56 UTC

I appreciate dudek's peaceful approach to the matter.... "Whoever wants to use them, let him enjoy them. And the one who wants to concentrate on the facts, doesn't have to pay attention to these features."

Well, whenever someone tags anything I added, I have to pay attention. Or should I say: I would have to pay attention? Editors don't even seem to be notified of such behaviour.

IMO, suggesting and introducing tags/'Highlights' was mainly actionism. Also, quite some of them were tailor-made according to some editors' personal preferences rather than being of any real use (except for saving from adding more detailed public comments)

Why tagging releases as 'cover versions albums' or 'Talent show'? The entries show so, anyway. If according data is added to public comments, there is also no need for a 'hit' tag. Etc. Nevertheless, no big problems.

However, I do, f. ex., mind if somebody tags versions I added as 'definitive', 'more famous than the original' etc. 'Definitive' is purely a subjective matter of taste (unless defined by a musicologist), and the latter may fit for Manfred Mann's various versions of "Mighty Quinn" and a few more examples.

But why should Jeff Buckley's version of "Hallelujah" be the 'definitive' one? Cohen's own official versions are surely more so (although indefinite...). Many will consider John Cale's or Lucky Jim's (cover) versions 'definitive'. And some superb versions in other lanuages may be even more 'definitive' (covers).

To stay with that example: I don't mind about 'editor's pick', which I consider sort of a personal recommendation by music lovers to other music lovers. That tag is actually a better and more direct way to indicate versions personally considered 'definitive'.

PS: I guess it's obvious from my earlier postings for the matter that I'm on MaryHelen's (thanks for quoting) and Wayne's side, here.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4640

It must schwing...

camembert electrique @ 2019-05-16 01:57:07 UTC

Dank je wel, Thom! Your comment grounded me a bit, again... Although this matter is (just) a part of a general one...

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3818

VirileVagabond @ 2019-05-16 02:53:04 UTC

To stay with that example: I don't mind about 'editor's pick', which I consider sort of a personal recommendation by music lovers to other music lovers. That tag is actually a better and more direct way to indicate versions personally considered 'definitive'.


"Editor's pick" and "Definitive" are completely different concepts. An editor can pick based on any reason, be it unusual, a deemed worthy cover, or by their favorite band. A definitive performance is determined by far more objective means.

DashBoardDJ856

Editor
Posts: 1711

DashBoardDJ856 @ 2019-05-16 04:21:23 UTC

I don't see the dramatic words, the slight hysteria and exaggeration. All I see is a lot of work for all of us.

Like I said, this is Bastien & Mathieu's project, they have to rethink and decide what direction they want to take.

______
“Let me be clear about this: I don’t have a drug problem, I have a police problem.”― Keith Richards

maryhelen

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1391

maryhelen @ 2019-05-16 04:24:43 UTC

i dare say it's called projection -- there is nothing dramatic in my statement but in fact, there is in such words as, "hysteria and exaggeration" "much ado about nothing" "wrecked" "doomsday scenario" "threatens the credibility." in other words, my statement is not, the interpretation IS dramatic and everything u said. the difference is objective vs subjective, statement vs interpretation, declarative vs, literary.

I also already said, "all the opinion/arbitrary/subjective, as all the comments show- is making it way more complicated than a database. THAT IS FINE-- if SHS decides that is it wants to be-- users, such as myself, who are interested only in facts, will continue using it as such." do whatever (some of) you want; i need such a database, i do not need another blog-- they are dime a dozen and mostly dribble, personal or otherwise.


i do agree with an international texts addition; here's my contributions:

mucho ruido y pocas nueces

beaucoup de bruit pour rien

wiele hałasu o nic

maryhelen

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1391

maryhelen @ 2019-05-16 04:31:45 UTC

"Like I said, this is Bastien & Mathieu's project, they have to rethink and decide what direction they want to take.exactly "


--that IS a logical objective succinct declarative statement about my words

walt

Editor
Posts: 4966

walt @ 2019-05-16 08:42:29 UTC

More hysteria: it may be interesting to know that Whosampled recently decided to let editors and direct submitters co-manage the tags. I guess, management was tired of all the error reports and of cleaning up the mess some users left behind.


Repeating myself here: We can have "editor's pick", and we could introduce "user's pick" or whatever, but that would be the end of the story of subjective highlighting for me. It's that simple.

maryhelen

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1391

maryhelen @ 2019-05-16 09:06:41 UTC

right-- follow in the footsteps of a righteous site!!

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3818

VirileVagabond @ 2019-05-16 12:05:06 UTC

... A definitive performance is determined by far more objective means [than an editor's pick].

Which are the objective parameters for defining a certain version as a definitive one?


An editor could literally flip a coin when choosing a pick and still be legitimate. For "definitive", the performance most associated with a work. The performance that brought the work to relatively great attention. The performance that likely generated the subsequent covers.


From my experience and assuming proper judicious use of the "definitive" tag, those tags will be fewer yet far more accurate than the numerous yet often dubious "first release" flags on site.

camembert electrique

Editor
Posts: 4640

It must schwing...

camembert electrique @ 2019-05-17 02:37:12 UTC

For "definitive", the performance most associated with a work. The performance that brought the work to relatively great attention. The performance that likely generated the subsequent covers. ...those tags will be ... far more accurate than the numerous yet often dubious "first release" flags on site.

Seemingly, there is quite a range of more or less subjectively applicable possibilities to 'define' versions of whatever kind as 'definitive'.

With 'definitive' generally understood as 'can't be topped' or 'once for all superior' etc., any such indication is very subjective by nature, though.

I'm probably a bit more cautious with flagging '1st releases' than some others, but, as you know, that doesn't mean always being right.

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3818

VirileVagabond @ 2019-05-17 16:31:07 UTC

Seemingly, there is quite a range of more or less subjectively applicable possibilities to 'define' versions of whatever kind as 'definitive'.

With 'definitive' generally understood as 'can't be topped' or 'once for all superior' etc., any such indication is very subjective by nature, though.

I'm probably a bit more cautious with flagging '1st releases' than some others, but, as you know, that doesn't mean always being right.


"Definitive" in no way means "can't be topped" or "once for all superior". I will use an example that I have used prior: I personally detest Mickey …, but I objectively acknowledge the performance is the definitive recording.

microtherion

Editor
Posts: 199

Close enough for Jazz!

microtherion @ 2019-05-17 18:50:54 UTC

From my experience and assuming proper judicious use of the "definitive" tag, those tags will be fewer yet far more accurate than the numerous yet often dubious "first release" flags on site.

There may be occasional errors in the "first release" flags, but there is a ground truth, in that of any two releases, one of them was objectively released first, even though it may be hard to document which of the two it was.

To me, "definitive" is much more of a "reasonable people can disagree" tag; it's inherently subjective, and can tell you more about the background of the taggers, than the release itself.

Cf. this discussion on Quora which is essentially what the "definitive" recording of "My Way" is. While I have a strong opinion on this one, it's entirely possible that both sides are right: Pop singers really may have been inspired by Elvis to record their version, and Jazz singers by Sinatra.

In fact, to me the very concept of "definitive" is kind of grounded in the tradition of rock/pop criticism, which is obsessed by absolutes: The 10 best guitarists, the best 1960s Ocarina solo etc. Jazz tradition tends to be more along the lines of "this performance is a different take on the song, and one worth listening to as well". But it doesn't bother me if other editors want to apply this tag; I just think I'll stick to "unusual" myself.

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor
Posts: 1114

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2019-05-17 19:00:31 UTC

And to keep beating one of my favorite dead horses....


On pretty much any definition (and good luck on that, folks), I think it's incontrovertible that the "definitive" version of Thanks for the "Boogie" Ride is the 1941 original: Thanks for the "Boogie" Ride

This performance is inextricably associated with Anita O'Day, but if you search the SHS for "boogie ride Anita O'Day" you'll get a "no results" return (and etc.).

______
JC

VirileVagabond

Certified Contributor
Posts: 3818

VirileVagabond @ 2019-05-17 19:17:51 UTC

There may be occasional errors in the "first release" flags, but there is a ground truth, in that of any two releases, one of them was objectively released first, even though it may be hard to document which of the two it was.


I have suggested a "designated first release" to cover the situation you describe, but that isn't the situation to which I was referring. I am thinking of the times (uncommon but not extremely rare) when I discover a performance not on site that was released earlier than the current "first release".


To me, "definitive" is much more of a "reasonable people can disagree" tag; it's inherently subjective, and can tell you more about the background of the taggers, than the release itself.

Cf. this discussion on Quora which is essentially what the "definitive" recording of "My Way" is. While I have a strong opinion on this one, it's entirely possible that both sides are right: Pop singers really may have been inspired by Elvis to record their version, and Jazz singers by Sinatra.


While no amount of subjectivity can be squeezed out, "definitive" is not appropriate when reasonable people can disagree, at least a material number on each side. On the other hand, just because there are flat-earthers out there doesn't mean we don't go with a globe. Personally, I don't consider "My Way" that much of a close call. The song was written for Sinatra and his is clearly the recording most associated with the work. On the other hand, "Always On My Mind" is a much more difficult work and likely doesn't have a definitive performance.


In fact, to me the very concept of "definitive" is kind of grounded in the tradition of rock/pop criticism, which is obsessed by absolutes: The 10 best guitarists, the best 1960s Ocarina solo etc. Jazz tradition tends to be more along the lines of "this performance is a different take on the song, and one worth listening to as well". But it doesn't bother me if other editors want to apply this tag; I just think I'll stick to "unusual" myself.


"Definitive" does not equate to "best".

"Worth listening to" would be an editor's pick.