Related Songs: Separate Entries or Combined

After noting that Brad Delp died in March, decided to do a small cover dump of some Boston covers not on site. This resulted in my comparing my notes with SHS entries for Foreplay/Long Time ....

While Foreplay and Longtime are currently on site as different works, the band's original is on site as medley, making submissions and seeing what's already on site very awkward and atypical. Here a typical user would likely click on Foreplay/Long Time and then have to know to click on the Longtime (work) to see the covers on site there.

To contrast, I looked up Funeral for a Friend and Love Lies Bleeding ..., which are treated as separate performances on site even tho they are similarly related.

I didn't want to file an error report but I do think some consistent rule is advisable.

In my opinion that one should be treated as a single song regardless of which part is performed, since that's the way it was originally done.

Quote from Oldiesmann

In my opinion that one should be treated as a single song regardless of which part is performed, since that's the way it was originally done.

Then how do we address the logistical issues? I'm thinking that we treat as a single work, so all F/LTs and just LTs list on the same page. The way things are do not work as expected for either users or contributors....

If it was agreed to treat both as a combined work, then all covers would be listed on the same page regardless of which portion of the song was covered.

Quote from Oldiesmann

If it was agreed to treat both as a combined work, then all covers would be listed on the same page regardless of which portion of the song was covered.

No Sugar Tonight / New Mother Nature just came to mind. I started a now closed error report:

https://secondhandsongs.com/error-report/24796

Currently in my notes I have some just Sugars and I believe I found some leads for some just News (tho none confirmed)....

Quote from Oldiesmann

In my opinion that one should be treated as a single song regardless of which part is performed, since that's the way it was originally done.

That's one way to look at it, but for our DB it's not workable. You have to split them up for two main reasons: authorship (that sometimes differ) and cover behaviour (single song or medley).

Walt, is there no way to address VV's points about making things less awkward and more accessible for users?

Quote from walt

Quote from Oldiesmann

In my opinion that one should be treated as a single song regardless of which part is performed, since that's the way it was originally done.

That's one way to look at it, but for our DB it's not workable. You have to split them up for two main reasons: authorship (that sometimes differ) and cover behaviour (single song or medley).

Authorship wasn't an issue with No Sugar Tonight / New Mother Nature. As far as the cover behavior goes, we'd just treat them all as a cover of the same song regardless of which part they covered.

Quote from Oldiesmann

Quote from walt

Quote from Oldiesmann

In my opinion that one should be treated as a single song regardless of which part is performed, since that's the way it was originally done.

That's one way to look at it, but for our DB it's not workable. You have to split them up for two main reasons: authorship (that sometimes differ) and cover behaviour (single song or medley).

Authorship wasn't an issue with No Sugar Tonight / New Mother Nature. As far as the cover behavior goes, we'd just treat them all as a cover of the same song regardless of which part they covered.

This visualization does not serve the user. It isn't uncommon for a performance to be titled with half of a common medley but is the full combo. As we have things I can't tell if a performance is just of "No Sugar" or of both halves unless titled as both.

Quote from VirileVagabond

Here a typical user would likely click on Foreplay/Long Time and then have to know to click on the Longtime (work) to see the covers on site there.

He can also click on VERSIONS.

Bastien, do you not understand the "make it easy for the user" point?

Quote from Bastien

Quote from VirileVagabond

Here a typical user would likely click on Foreplay/Long Time and then have to know to click on the Longtime (work) to see the covers on site there.

He can also click on VERSIONS.

Not sure what shows on your screen, but on mine... no... he can't just click on "Versions". Search/finding Boston and then Foreplay/Long Time from the "Originals" tab. Under that performance clicking the "Versions" tab currently returns the original and two covers (3 total entries).

Returning to Foreplay/Long Time ..., clicking on Foreplay returns the same 3 performances and one open submission (4 total entries).

Back to Foreplay/Long Time for another go, clicking on Longtime currently returns 7 total/processed entries.

Quote from Jeff Chamberlain

Bastien, do you not understand the "make it easy for the user" point?

Jeff, on the contrary, I'm trying to understand "what's not easy for the user".

Quote from VirileVagabond

Back to Foreplay/Long Time for another go, clicking on Longtime currently returns 7 total/processed entries.

Ok, now I get it. It's hard to find for example the Long Time version by Dark One Lite when one starts from the Boston original.

I'm wondering whether the data have been created correctly actually. Looking at the ASCAP entry for Foreplay, it says:

Alternate Titles

FORPLAY

So are we sure both parts have been registered separately?

Last edit: 2020-04-03 15:47:42 UTC by Bastien

Quote from Bastien

I'm wondering whether the data have been created correctly actually. Looking at the ASCAP entry for Foreplay, it says:

Alternate Titles

FORE PLAY

FOREPLAY LONG T

FOREPLAY LONG TIM

FOREPLAY/LONG TIME

FORPLAY

So are we sure both parts have been registered separately?

Outside my wheelhouse, so I defer to the editors on those matters. I almost always come from the point of view of an average user of the site. Perhaps there's no feasible solution unless we setup this one as an exception to the general SHS rules.

Since both works have the same writing credits, setting up as a single work should address the visualization problems without any real harm (as opposed to say "New Mother" and "No Sugar" referenced earlier). This would be similar to (e.g.) a long classical work but the cover is only of a portion. Another forced solution could be a comment under the original performance encouraging a user to click on the separate works.

Back to the case at hand, the vast majority of entries will be F/LT or just LT, but I can imagine only Foreplay being used as part of a medley, mash, element, etc.

Quote from VirileVagabond

Outside my wheelhouse, so I defer to the editors on those matters.

You are taking the easy way out VV.

Anyway, Foreplay was my entry, so I assume my hypothesis is correct and I extended Foreplay to Foreplay/Long Time. The issue in question is no more.

Quote from Bastien

Quote from VirileVagabond

Outside my wheelhouse, so I defer to the editors on those matters.

You are taking the easy way out VV.

I'm not an editor; therefore, should not be expected to make editor level determinations....

On the other hand, I will offer contingent solutions: If the editors determine "X", then perhaps A, B or C; however, if the editors determine "Y", then possibly D, E or F.