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Public domain songs being claimed by others.

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 37547

Bastien @ 2020-08-17 14:07:47 UTC

However, I understand the editors' frustration on this matter, there is a great feeling of... injustice.

If you want we can more formally identify works that have been claimed by people who didn't write them: musicologists like Carter, studio and label owners, etc...

It could be done with a work tag... does anybody have any proposal? "Misappropriated" perhaps?

This work tag could in turn trigger the display of a text string like:

The legal composers/authors of this work likely don't correspond with the actual composers/authors.

Working with a tag would even allow for new queries like "Most misappropriating artists" Happy

JeffC

Junior Editor
Posts: 1933

JeffC @ 2020-08-17 14:34:18 UTC

Bastien


Or, we could simply try to be, um, accurate....


Or,

Stop claiming "accuracy" and change what we now inappropriately label as "written by" to "registered to."

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JC

Bastien

Manager
Posts: 37547

Bastien @ 2020-08-17 15:07:23 UTC

(...) and change what we now inappropriately label as "written by" to "registered to."

... or change the labels to "legal composer" and "legal author". But then again no, let's not adapt all of the website for a minority of cases.

In fact, please reconsider my proposal, it's about properly flagging & labeling these entries.

JeffC

Junior Editor
Posts: 1933

JeffC @ 2020-08-17 15:08:32 UTC

Knowingly entering/maintaining false information ... what would you call that?

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JC

JeffC

Junior Editor
Posts: 1933

JeffC @ 2020-08-17 16:51:28 UTC

Bastien

"it's about properly flagging & labeling these entries."


Not so long as it continues to say "written by," it isn't.

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JC

walt

Senior Editor
Posts: 5840

walt @ 2020-08-20 08:38:31 UTC

What Oldiesman said.


If I encounter a song with the supposed wrong author, I still should recognize it as the same song. So, 'No Woman No Cry' should be credited to Ford (not Marley), because it mostly is credited that way. A simple comment at work level is of course needed.


"public domain" songs are different, you can not credit it every guy that claimed it (see 'Rising Sun'), again: the comment section here is your saviour. Something like "often credited to writer X but not clear what the (wo)man added other than his signature" Smile

walt

Senior Editor
Posts: 5840

walt @ 2020-08-20 09:02:41 UTC

Mark, I should always credit A.P. Carter, I believe, in most cases he did not copy blatantly. But, this is certainly an artist who cries out for a comment at each song, at all times. Same goes for Leadbelly, I suppose.


I have less sympathy for the Lomaxes, I have a feeling, most of their songs are in the public domain anyway, meaning: I don't encounter many Lomax credits, but I could be wrong.

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 8473

sebcat @ 2020-08-22 14:23:12 UTC

mduval32323 does An American Trilogy also fall into this category? Or did Mickey Newbury add new lyrics or music to the medley of three American traditionals?

In my opinion he didn't add anything new to the medley, but I'd like Mark's opinion as well.

That's good to know Oldiesmann . I've just spotted an ancient thread discussing this same point. I suggest we continue the discussion there.

Last edit: 2020-08-22 14:56:27 UTC by sebcat

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 8473

sebcat @ 2020-08-22 14:35:55 UTC

What Oldiesman said.

If I encounter a song with the supposed wrong author, I still should recognize it as the same song. So, 'No Woman No Cry' should be credited to Ford (not Marley), because it mostly is credited that way. A simple comment at work level is of course needed.

Oldiesmann said: If there's strong supporting evidence that what the PROs say is wrong, we should go with that regardless of what the PROs say. We can always leave comments to support it. Wouldn't that suggest that Bastien crediting Marley for No Woman, No Cry is the way to go? Or are you saying you prefer the approach that camembert electrique crediting Roots, Rock, Reggae to Ford?

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 8473

sebcat @ 2020-08-22 14:39:02 UTC

"public domain" songs are different, you can not credit it every guy that claimed it (see 'Rising Sun'), again: the comment section here is your saviour. Something like "often credited to writer X but not clear what the (wo)man added other than his signature" Smile

I agree on public domain songs, but I don't think we have consensus yet, as per the recent exchange that you had with Bastien and Oliver One . Wherever we end on the debate of whether to follow PROs or not, I agree that we shouldn't make new adaptations for every public domain entry where an artist has claimed a songwriting credit for a new arrangment.

camembert electrique

Senior Editor
Posts: 6672

camembert electrique @ 2020-08-22 17:05:56 UTC

Wouldn't that suggest that Bastien crediting Marley for No Woman, No Cry is the way to go? Or are you saying you prefer the approach that camembert electrique crediting Roots, Rock, Reggae to Ford?

Do we actually have any real evidence for the story told in the No Woman, No Cry comments? Besides, if following https://secondhandsongs.com/page/Guidelines/UseOfSources/SourcesCredits , it seems Ford should be credited.

Roots, Rock, Reggae is a differernt song, anyway - and none of the two are PD resp. traditionals....

Last edit: 2020-08-22 17:21:51 UTC by camembert electrique

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It must schwing (Alfred Lion, co-founder of Blue Note)

JeffC

Junior Editor
Posts: 1933

JeffC @ 2020-08-31 12:15:35 UTC

How, exactly, does (would?) using PRO registrations work in practice? Is a contributor/editor expected to check the PRO databases (all of them, presumably) each time? If someone has claimed royalties by filing a "later" PRO registration (which seems to be fairly common with "public domain" or "traditional" songs), how will we determine to which registration will even later releases/performances be credited? If we discover a release that is (mis-)credited to one PRO registrant but should be credited to a different PRO registrant (passing, for the moment, how we'll determine this), should we file an error report? Do PRO databases ever disagree with each other?

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JC

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 8473

sebcat @ 2020-08-31 13:34:13 UTC

Do we actually have any real evidence for the story told in the No Woman, No Cry comments? Besides, if following https://secondhandsongs.com/page/Guidelines/UseOfSources/SourcesCredits , it seems Ford should be credited.

Yes it's those guidelines that have been causing the push-back from JeffC mduval32323 and baggish . But if we are sticking with those guidelines, then I agree that Bastien should change his entry for No Woman, No Cry

Last edit: 2023-08-30 09:20:54 UTC by sebcat

walt

Senior Editor
Posts: 5840

walt @ 2020-09-03 10:53:59 UTC

Bastien should change it to Ford (and follow the PRO's ). Being a friend of the Marley family, he has other credits on Crazy Baldhead, Roots, Rock , Reggae and Positive Vibration and two songs by Stephen Marley as well. Karel Michiels in his recent book on "Marley: 25 songs" says, it was a nice gesture but also a way to avoid contractual obligations to Danny Sims (his local manager I believe).

JeffC

Junior Editor
Posts: 1933

JeffC @ 2020-09-22 20:51:12 UTC

At the entry: "Probably written by Bob Marley " We, however, will credit someone who more likely than not did not do what we say he did. Yessir. Accuracy. We're all about accuracy.

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JC

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5882

Tar Heel @ 2020-09-22 20:57:56 UTC

At the entry: "Probably written by Bob Marley " We, however, will credit someone who more likely than not did not do what we say he did. Yessir. Accuracy. We're all about accuracy.


Agreed! It is accurate to show that the PRO legal writer is Vincent and it is accurate to reflect in the comments that it is generally believed that Marley actually wrote the song. Glad we have finally reached an accord.

JeffC

Junior Editor
Posts: 1933

JeffC @ 2020-09-22 21:07:51 UTC

VV, I must have a malfunction, since I don't show the part about showing that "the PRO writer is Vincent." On my screen it says "written by."

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JC