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Scarborough Fair (Trad) vs Scarborough Fair / Canticle (Simon & Garfunkel)

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2021-01-12 23:55:02 UTC

Scarborough Fair is such a well known and often covered song but I always struggle with where cover performances belong - especially instrumentals. The reality is most American Artist releases with performances of Scarborough Fair will likely credit Simon & Garfunkel out of an abundance of caution and probably will use the long title even if it's an instrumental, so going by vinyl labels probably isn't ideal here. SHS set up the Simon & Garfunkel adaptation as a lyricization but we also credited Simon & Garfunkel for new music as well so now we have approx. 100 cover performances of Scarborough Fair down below the adaptation (when we typically would NOT do that). Sebastian said there may be a new melody element as well and to post this on the forum for feedback. If there is the new musical piece then we need to explain this in the Work comments and probably somehow give people guidance between the melody differences that are so great they require our putting instrumentals in the adaptation. You know me, I'm not a fan of musical adaptations because it makes it very difficult to assign covers and we end up with disparate treatment of like performances (and frankly, I don't have a good musical ear). My gut tells me we likely have a lot of instrumental covers parked in the adaptation that really could be in the Traditional Work (and the song titles really are probably not a good indicator of where they should go).

I'd appreciate any help here.

Scarborough Fair / Canticle

______
Mark

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 7968

sebcat @ 2021-01-13 00:05:57 UTC

If there is the new musical piece then we need to explain this in the Work comments and probably somehow give people guidance between the melody differences that are so great they require our putting instrumentals in the adaptation. You know me, I'm not a fan of musical adaptations because it makes it very difficult to assign covers and we end up with disparate treatment of like performances (and frankly, I don't have a good musical ear). My gut tells me we likely have a lot of instrumental covers parked in the adaptation that really could be in the Traditional Work (and the song titles really are probably not a good indicator of where they should go).

Thanks for raising this, mduval32323 . I agree that we need to explain adaptations more clearly than we do, except for the obvious translations. In this case, the key is whether there are new musical elements that have been added to the traditional work.

artsinspired

Managing Editor
Posts: 1393

artsinspired @ 2021-01-13 05:48:25 UTC

I've always struggled with where to place versions of Scarborough Fair so I probably can't be of much help here. I'll listen again to some versions and see if I can identify the new musical element(s) of Simon & Garfunkel's rendition.

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2021-01-13 06:04:43 UTC

On a far back burner somewhere, I have plans to reconcile my notes with SHS in this regard (completely deferring to the editors unless something really jumps); therefore, glad to see this come up. I avoid submitting covers of this one, even hesitating to include a work internal link in the "additional covers" list due to not wanting to take a position.


Initially responded to just confirm I read and considered the post (which most do not), but after further consideration perhaps a default placement is in order. All vocal and instrumental performances get grouped together unless it's a clear exception. Some public comment and/or e-note should be added on exceptions to document the why.

jojo

New Editor
Posts: 1755

jojo @ 2021-01-13 11:15:52 UTC

As JoAnn and Mark rightly point out, it is extremely difficult to determine whether certain instrumentals are the traditional or the S&G version.

As for the instrumental versions, the easiest way, as Mark suggests, would be to treat them like a traditional work.

Because the current setup of instrumental versions is a bit of a mess.

Some versions, which are now considered a traditional, are in fact the S&G version (with the counter melody).


For example:

Scarborough Fair


Scarborough Fair


BTW there are also at least 3 versions in the lyrical section, that are in fact instrumental versions.


Scarborough Fair / Canticle


Scarborough Fair / Canticle


Scarborough Fair


JoJo greets

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2021-01-14 00:41:19 UTC

Thank you so much the responses. Jojo, I will happily move the peformances you identified in question but right now we are in a holding pattern. Normally I would take charge at addressing all this myself but Bastien is the one who created the Adaptation and our past history suggests I steer clear until he interjects here. I'm happy to take the lead once that's allowed but it's incumbent upon him at this point so the topic may grow stale before he has the time to see this and respond.

Also, I apologize for reply requesting, Sebastian is teaching me how to tag people instead.

______
Mark

mduval32323

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 965

mduval32323 @ 2021-01-19 02:07:52 UTC

When I said this topic would become dated before we actually addressed it I wasn't being facetious. It's why most stuff never changes around here. I even volunteered to address this very important song. But as usual when reliant upon Bastien to respond it will go upon deaf ears until a month or two from now and then he will respond and we will go huh and I will not care at that point. It's a pattern.

______
Mark

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2021-01-19 05:56:24 UTC

But as usual when reliant upon Bastien to respond it will go upon deaf ears until a month or two from now and then he will respond and we will go huh and I will not care at that point. It's a pattern.


Link?

walt

Editor
Posts: 5775

walt @ 2021-01-25 11:20:00 UTC

From Joop's blog:


"Paul Simon also learned the song from Martin Carthy, while in London in 1965. Simon was very charmed by Carthy's guitar arrangement of "Scarborough Fair" and copied this one year later for the Simon & Garfunkel version of the song. They set it in counterpoint with "Canticle" – a reworking of the lyrics from Simon's 1963 anti-war song, "The Side of a Hill", set to a new melody composed mainly by Art Garfunkel."


Assuming this is accurate, we should reflect this in some way, but at the same time, avoiding the insane task of checking hundreds of covers and instrumentals in search for that counter melody. Is that possible? Ideas ayone? Bastien sebcat Oldiesmann

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 7968

sebcat @ 2021-02-06 12:25:54 UTC

Assuming this is accurate, we should reflect this in some way, but at the same time, avoiding the insane task of checking hundreds of covers and instrumentals in search for that counter melody. Is that possible? Ideas anyone?

The current set-up might just be okay then - as to go from Scarborough Fair to Scarborough Fair / Canticle Simon and Garfunkel did two things: (i) added additional lyrics from The Side of a Hill and (ii) added an additional counter-melody "Canticle" for those lyrics. We have the first covered by the partial adaptation relation and we have the second covered by the recomposition relation.

My suggestions would be:

1. Add a clear comment to the recomposition relation explaining about the counter-melody addition. Currently there is nothing on our site explaining any of this. For Bastien to agree as the owner of Scarborough Fair / Canticle.

2. Clear up the wrongly assigned instrumentals pointed out by jojo .

3. For vocal versions, use the lyrics to determine whether to assign to Scarborough Fair or Scarborough Fair / Canticle.

4. For instrumental versions, as suggested by jojo , assign to the traditional version unless the title explicitly references Canticle.

Tar Heel

Member
Posts: 5771

Tar Heel @ 2021-02-06 13:47:36 UTC

2. Clear up the wrongly assigned instrumentals pointed out by jojo .

3. For vocal versions, use the lyrics to determine whether to assign to Scarborough Fair or Scarborough Fair / Canticle.

4. For instrumental versions, as suggested by jojo , assign to the traditional version unless the title explicitly references Canticle.


a) This looks to be a Herculean task. Will full audio be available for every entry? My gut still says just start by grouping all under the normal versions (vocal and instrumental) and then move as needed when each is examined more thoroughly, noting the findings in a public comment and/or e-note.


b) Since when does the performance title control for SHS purposes?