Flemish

Is there no "Flemish" language option in the dropdown or am I just not finding it?

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110305

Flemish is not a language. It is based on Flanders, a part of Belgium where they speak Dutch, to point that something is from that area.

My view, if Disney is releasing soundtracks in a specific language/dialect, that's proof enough for me that language/dialect merits it's own dropdown category.

I'm guessing that our current tool for language is an internet standard, so we likely should not change the options, but we could add an additional field for sub-groups:

LA Spanish vs. Euro Spanish

Mandarin Chinese vs. Cantonese Chinese

LA Portuguese vs. Euro Portuguese

Dutch vs. Flemish

Quote from VirileVagabond

My view, if Disney is releasing soundtracks in a specific language/dialect, that's proof enough for me that language/dialect merits it's own dropdown category.

I'm guessing that our current tool for language is an internet standard, so we likely should not change the options, but we could add an additional field for sub-groups:

LA Spanish vs. Euro Spanish

Mandarin Chinese vs. Cantonese Chinese

LA Portuguese vs. Euro Portuguese

Dutch vs. Flemish

Then: what about English (UK, US, Australia)?

The Flemish people use the same dictionary as the Dutch people do, with the same grammatica, I know because I'm one of them.

Quote from Mark_Heyrman

Quote from VirileVagabond

My view, if Disney is releasing soundtracks in a specific language/dialect, that's proof enough for me that language/dialect merits it's own dropdown category.

I'm guessing that our current tool for language is an internet standard, so we likely should not change the options, but we could add an additional field for sub-groups:

LA Spanish vs. Euro Spanish

Mandarin Chinese vs. Cantonese Chinese

LA Portuguese vs. Euro Portuguese

Dutch vs. Flemish

Then: what about English (UK, US, Australia)?

The Flemish people use the same dictionary as the Dutch people do, with the same grammatica, I know because I'm one of them.

Again:

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110288

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110305

Why the different productions, translators, etc.?

I would have no problem with sub-categories for American vs. Queen's English, but it appears that Disney (to continue with that test) does not release separate English versions for those markets; however, I could see them replace a single track on each with a "native" artist singing the big song.

For Disney to produce an album in a specific language/dialect, I would think they have determined that the market is both large and prosperous enough to justify the costs, They certainly produce both LA Portuguese and Spanish; Euro P & S, yet we only have Spanish and Portuguese as dropdown options.

In short, these distinctions are important enough to have an effect on the musical world and, therefore, SHS should find a way to capture these distinctions better.

One should wish that it was that simple, but it's not. The dialects in Belgium differs so much that people who live on the east-side of the country don't understand the ones from the west-side. It is so bad that we got subtitles on TV and movie-theatres.

The same story in the Netherlands, where there exist a dictionary to translate the dialect spoken in the province Friesland, to "standard" Dutch.

I wish you all the luck of the world to get this worked-out.

Mark_Heyrman Strange... One would think that dialects of the same language would have to be mutually intelligible by definition. It's my understanding even different languages can be mutually intelligible (e.g. Old English and Old Norse per some scholars). Perhaps some living languages are so understood.

Anyway, the answer is no, there is no separate dropdown for Flemish, but I've now expanded the discussion to how best to handle dialects on site. The rare entry can be a comment, but the far more common should have something "harder", like a sub-category under then language.

The only downsides are:

a) The coding necessary; and

b) The risks of people demanding a sub-category for increasingly rare dialects on site.

Related discussion here.

Quote from VirileVagabond

Again:

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110288

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110305

Why the different productions, translators, etc.?

I don't hear any difference in the lyics between the "Flemish" version and the "Dutch" version.

Here are the lyrics of both of them.

https://www.songteksten.nl/songteksten/40092/de-leeuwenkoning/de-levenscyclus.ht…

And I also don't hear any difference in the production between both versions.

JoJo greets

jojo I by no means have an ear for detecting differences, so the narrow question would be why would this exist?

https://music.apple.com/au/album/the-lion-king-originele-vlaamse-soundtrack/id14…

As for production, to confirm my suspicions that every recording on every version of the 2019 "The Lion King" soundtrack uses the same music backing track, I checked my notes and all have the same runtimes. The only differences are the performing artists, translators and lyrics.

I'm also assuming that for every language/dialect soundtrack, there was a dubbed version of the film with mostly different actors, etc. This means that Disney went through the trouble and costs of producing a separate Flemish dubbed film and soundtrack, paying separate translators, vocalists and actors. Why?

Now, for me the question of the translators from the autogens and other sources remains open. Are these credits just for the lyrics or do they include those who translated film dialogue that is also in the recordings?

Lastly, my analysis here and elsewhere is ignoring the possibility of political concerns that may result in a language/dialect being produced or not produced. As for Flemish specifically, that dialect may be relatively rare on site to be handled via comment; however, (e.g.) LA Spanish vs. Euro Spanish is far more common on site.

Quote from VirileVagabond

jojo I by no means have an ear for detecting differences, so the narrow question would be why would this exist?

https://music.apple.com/au/album/the-lion-king-originele-vlaamse-soundtrack/id14…

Generate money for avid shareholders of the Disney Corporation

Quote from VirileVagabond

As for production, to confirm my suspicions that every recording on every version of the 2019 "The Lion King" soundtrack uses the same music backing track, I checked my notes and all have the same runtimes. The only differences are the performing artists, translators and lyrics.

As I said in my previous comment: I don't hear any difference in the lyics between the "Flemish" version and the "Dutch" version of De kringloop van het leven

So the translator has to be the same. And that's Jan Derk Beck

Quote from VirileVagabond

Now, for me the question of the translators from the autogens and other sources remains open. Are these credits just for the lyrics or do they include those who translated film dialogue that is also in the recordings?

I see what you mean: they mention an extra translator for the 2019 version. The only song with different lyrics (compared to the original Dutch 1994 version) is "Sta Paraat", which is the translation of Be Prepared

So my guess is Hanneke van Bogget wrote a new Dutch translation for Be Prepared in 2019.

And this new Dutch translation was used in both the Dutch and Flemish version of The Lion King.

So the only difference from both productions would be the performers.

Hope this answers your questions VV.

JoJo greets

Quote from jojo

Quote from VirileVagabond

jojo I by no means have an ear for detecting differences, so the narrow question would be why would this exist?

https://music.apple.com/au/album/the-lion-king-originele-vlaamse-soundtrack/id14…

Generate money for avid shareholders of the Disney Corporation

Not a viable answer. Why would one purchase the Flemish soundtrack if the Dutch is the same? (Expanded on below.)

Quote from VirileVagabond

As for production, to confirm my suspicions that every recording on every version of the 2019 "The Lion King" soundtrack uses the same music backing track, I checked my notes and all have the same runtimes. The only differences are the performing artists, translators and lyrics.

As I said in my previous comment: I don't hear any difference in the lyics between the "Flemish" version and the "Dutch" version of De kringloop van het leven

So the translator has to be the same. And that's Jan Derk Beck

What you hear is one thing; my current findings are another. I will say that (after just checking), the song titles look identical. This suggests:

a) The works are the same but the performing artists and actors are different;

b) The different translator credits are for the dialogue not the lyrics;

c) The reason for the two soundtracks is to feature different performers who would be of more interest in the two markets; and

d) Different dialogue translators means different Flemish and Dutch dubs of the film, which further suggests material differences in the dialects.

If this is correct, one wonders why the Flemish market justified a production but the British, Australian, Canadian, etc. didn't justify separate English productions with local vocalists and actors. The reason could be that films in English tend to use talent from across the Anglosphere anyway, while the Flemish and Dutch are a bit more "hostile" (for lack of a better term).

Quote from VirileVagabond

Now, for me the question of the translators from the autogens and other sources remains open. Are these credits just for the lyrics or do they include those who translated film dialogue that is also in the recordings?

I see what you mean: they mention an extra translator for the 2019 version. The only song with different lyrics (compared to the original Dutch 1994 version) is "Sta Paraat", which is the translation of Be Prepared

So my guess is Hanneke van Bogget wrote a new Dutch translation for Be Prepared in 2019.

And this new Dutch translation was used in both the Dutch and Flemish version of The Lion King.

These two soundtracks aren't the only non-English I reviewed. From that experience, I believe that the autogen translator credits are relatively reliable and they are not the same for each track. This suggests that "Be Prepared" is not the sole new translation.

So the only difference from both productions would be the performers.

Hope this answers your questions VV.

I think this is basically correct and helps explain broader findings. I had earlier speculated that additional translator credits from the 1994 soundtrack recordings to 2019 was the result of tweaking the earlier adaptions. In addition, for example the LA Spanish adaption came first and then was tweaked for the Euro Spanish adaption.

The tweaking theory would make sense in light of a need to fit an adaption to an existing backing track, new cultural sensibilities, or the pace of the remade film. After just checking, it appears that the 1994 soundtracks all have the same backing tracks as well. This all suggests that it isn't tweaking credits but dialogue credits.

Back to the narrow question, this suggest that "Flemish" may not be a dialect but rather a geographic region in this context?

Last edit: 2021-01-30 18:54:41 UTC by Tar Heel

Quote from VirileVagabond

Quote from jojo

Quote from VirileVagabond

jojo I by no means have an ear for detecting differences, so the narrow question would be why would this exist?

https://music.apple.com/au/album/the-lion-king-originele-vlaamse-soundtrack/id14…

Generate money for avid shareholders of the Disney Corporation

Not a viable answer. Why would one purchase the Flemish soundtrack if the Dutch is the same? (Expanded on below.)

Quote from VirileVagabond

As for production, to confirm my suspicions that every recording on every version of the 2019 "The Lion King" soundtrack uses the same music backing track, I checked my notes and all have the same runtimes. The only differences are the performing artists, translators and lyrics.

As I said in my previous comment: I don't hear any difference in the lyics between the "Flemish" version and the "Dutch" version of De kringloop van het leven

So the translator has to be the same. And that's Jan Derk Beck

What you hear is one thing; my current findings are another. I will say that (after just checking), the song titles look identical. This suggests:

a) The works are the same but the performing artists and actors are different;

b) The different translator credits are for the dialogue not the lyrics;

c) The reason for the two soundtracks is to feature different performers who would be of more interest in the two markets; and

d) Different dialogue translators means different Flemish and Dutch dubs of the film, which further suggests material differences in the dialects.

If this is correct, one wonders why the Flemish market justified a production but the British, Australian, Canadian, etc. didn't justify separate English productions with local vocalists and actors. The reason could be that films in English tend to use talent from across the Anglosphere anyway, while the Flemish and Dutch are a bit more "hostile" (for lack of a better term).

Quote from VirileVagabond

Now, for me the question of the translators from the autogens and other sources remains open. Are these credits just for the lyrics or do they include those who translated film dialogue that is also in the recordings?

I see what you mean: they mention an extra translator for the 2019 version. The only song with different lyrics (compared to the original Dutch 1994 version) is "Sta Paraat", which is the translation of Be Prepared

So my guess is Hanneke van Bogget wrote a new Dutch translation for Be Prepared in 2019.

And this new Dutch translation was used in both the Dutch and Flemish version of The Lion King.

These two soundtracks aren't the only non-English I reviewed. From that experience, I believe that the autogen translator credits are relatively reliable and they are not the same for each track. This suggests that "Be Prepared" is not the sole new translation.

So the only difference from both productions would be the performers.

Hope this answers your questions VV.

I think this is basically correct and helps explain broader findings. I had earlier speculated that additional translator credits from the 1994 soundtrack recordings to 2019 was the result of tweaking the earlier adaptions. In addition, for example the LA Spanish adaption came first and then was tweaked for the Euro Spanish adaption.

The tweaking theory would make sense in light of a need to fit an adaption to an existing backing track, new cultural sensibilities, or the pace of the remade film. After just checking, it appears that the 1994 soundtracks all have the same backing tracks as well. This all suggests that it isn't tweaking credits but dialogue credits.

Back to the narrow question, this suggest that "Flemish" may not be a dialect but rather a geographic region in this context?

VirileVagabond From my point of view, this is the right angle to see the potentially purpose: making it more suitable for the local children in understanding the dialogue ( by Mark_Heyrman )

Quote from VirileVagabond

b) The different translator credits are for the dialogue not the lyrics;

Can you show me where you found the different translator credits between the 2019 Flemish and the 2019 Dutch version ? Because I can't find it.

JoJo greets

Quote from jojo

Quote from VirileVagabond

b) The different translator credits are for the dialogue not the lyrics;

Can you show me where you found the different translator credits between the 2019 Flemish and the 2019 Dutch version ? Because I can't find it.

I have already provided in this thread, but will do so again. These are the Dutch and "Flemish" main submissions, respectively, both of which will take to all of the related submissions. Scroll down the autogen notes and you will find the translator credits (if provided) for each performance:

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110288

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110305

Quote from VirileVagabond

I have already provided in this thread, but will do so again. These are the Dutch and "Flemish" main submissions, respectively, both of which will take to all of the related submissions. Scroll down the autogen notes and you will find the translator credits (if provided) for each performance:

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110288

https://secondhandsongs.com/submission/110305

I had hoped you could show me a link to the liner-notes of both albums.

I now see that Hanneke van Bogget is only mentioned as translator in the Flemish version. Strange !!!

Because Hanneke van Bogget is a Dutch woman, who has translated (into Dutch) quiet a few songs.

https://dutchcharts.nl/showperson.asp?name=Hanneke+van+Bogget

For example she was a translator for a song from the Dutch version of "Frozen".

https://lyricstranslate.com/nl/frozen-ost-bevroren-hart-frozen-heart-lyrics.html

And here she pops up in an interview concerning the Dutch translation of another Disney classic "Junglebook".

https://www.facebook.com/stemmenvantoen/videos/1258233170890359

So I think, the Youtube credits for the 2019 Dutch version of "Lion King" should also have had the name of Hanneke van Bogget as a translator.

I have listened to all the songs on both the 2019 Flemish and 2019 Dutch version. And they are identical.

BTW i don't hear any dialogue on both soundtracks, except for the first 30 seconds of the song: "Sta Paraat".

JoJo greets

Quote from jojo

I had hoped you could show me a link to the liner-notes of both albums.

Amazon has no physical version of either, so there likely are none.

So I think, the Youtube credits for the 2019 Dutch version of "Lion King" should also have had the name of Hanneke van Bogget as a translator.

Jan Derk Beck appears to have been Disney's Dutch translator during the early renaissance period (e.g. circa Lil Mermaid thru Lion King), so it is no surprise he's credited on the remake.

After now years of looking at autogens and any a-notes, I've gotten a pretty good feel for judging reliability. This is especially true when looking at a number of recordings from the same release and over the same series, like in this case. Since the a-notes for these recordings are so detailed and generally reconcile with translator credits on SHS, they don't get more reliable than these. Infallible, no; but still not to be easily dismissed.

I have listened to all the songs on both the 2019 Flemish and 2019 Dutch version. And they are identical.

You keep repeating that. Same works or same recordings? The different releases credit different performing artists, though there is some overlap. Have you compared the 1994 recordings with 2019? I do not have the 1994 Dutch performances in my notes, so I currently take no position.

BTW i don't hear any dialogue on both soundtracks, except for the first 30 seconds of the song: "Sta Paraat".

We better find it, or we're back to square one on making sense of the credits. I'm betting that some dialogue is sung for the movie, but isn't actually official lyrics. What really got me going with the dialogue explanation is seeing some of the actors getting a translator credit. I also seem to remember suspecting this when looking at Disocgs entries, images of physical releases, etc.

The big commercial difference between us/uk English and Dutch/Flemish is that Hollywood (voice) actors are known in the UK, but Dutch actors are hardly known in Flanders (and vice versa).

Don't let a commercial decision by an American company dictate how we structure (other) languages.

Quote from Mathieu

The big commercial difference between us/uk English and Dutch/Flemish is that Hollywood (voice) actors are known in the UK, but Dutch actors are hardly known in Flanders (and vice versa).

I guessed as much already in this thread.

Don't let a commercial decision by an American company dictate how we structure (other) languages.

Here I would disagree. First, Disney is rather international these days.

Second, one of the best explanations offered to me re: why SHS defaults to the PRO sites for writing credits is that's how the writers get paid. Follow the money. On which sources are the writers going to be most watchful as to accuracy?

As stated earlier, Disney is a for profit entity; therefore, it will not produce material for a market unless it is large and prosperous enough to justify the expense (absent political considerations).

With JJ stating that the songs are the same, I believe we have already determined that "Flemish" in this context is geographic rather than linguistic; however, that still leaves the additional translator credits to be explained. If the lyrics are the same, that leaves different film dialogue between the Dutch and Flemish dubs of the film.

If the extra credit is an error, why are the other autogen credits seemingly without such an error?