Hallelujah by Leonard Cohen

I'm wondering whether we have Hallelujah set up correctly on the site. Cohen's original version - Hallelujah - contained four verses. In 1988, he sang a different version live, with three new verses and the same concluding verse. Buckley's version - Hallelujah - takes two verses from the 1984 version and three from the 1988 version. You can see the lyrics from each version here.

Should we make the 1988 version an adaptation of the 1984 version, and then assign subsequent versions accordingly? This will take a long time if we want to go down this route. But it feels to me like we should given how important this song is, and how well covered it is - 475 versions and counting.

There are several different entries in ISWC, with different versions assigned to each:

T-071.514.434-5

T-902.146.779-8

T-906.348.868-6

T-911.444.288-5

T-915.578.167-2

T-923.194.783-4

Copying Bastien as he owns the original work, and the original by Cohen and the version by Buckley. But I expect other editors will have views on this, given the importance of this work in musical history.

We definitely should add this important info at work level and in several comment boxes where lyrics substantially do change.

Creating adaptations would perhaps be cleaner and more correct, but would force us to the giant task of listening to all versions to see which version they fit, no?

Quote from walt

Creating adaptations would perhaps be cleaner and more correct, but would force us to the giant task of listening to all versions to see which version they fit, no?

Yes that’s exactly the challenge. But probably the right step over the longer term.

Quote from sebcat

Buckley's version - Hallelujah - takes two verses from the 1984 version and three from the 1988 version.

Doesn't that imply, if we should pursue in making adaptations, Buckley's version is a medley?

Quote from walt

Quote from sebcat

Buckley's version - Hallelujah - takes two verses from the 1984 version and three from the 1988 version.

Doesn't that imply, if we should pursue in making adaptations, Buckley's version is a medley?

Yes! But it would appear on the pages for both root works too, if we went down this route.

Quote from walt

Doesn't that imply, if we should pursue in making adaptations, Buckley's version is a medley?

In fact, this could help. We could add the 1988 adaptation by Cohen and then set Buckley as a medley of both - and then over time move any versions that use the 1988 lyrics (in part or in full) over to the new adaptation.

Bastien - as the creator of the work and the Cohen/Buckley versions, do you agree?

Copying artsinspired too, as JoAnn has entered many covers of the work.

I'm not in favor of making adaptations for this work. It would be a huge amount of work, and we'd probably end up with a lot of performances not in the right places. Especially since we can't always listen to the full version of each performance in order to know where to assign it.

I'm fine with making a comment about the lyrical changes.

Interesting thread. Interesting arguments from everyone.

From a purist and conceptual point of view, yes, we should make an adaptation.

However, from a pragmatic point of view, I'm not sure. Everyone has already mentioned the huge workload to attribute all of the versions to the right work, but I see another issue also: Will our "unsuspecting" users still understand the set-up? Won't we create confusing with a Cohen-adaptation of another Cohen-work with the same title? And indeed, it would make the Buckley version a medley, and perhaps other versions as well. Won't that create too much confusion?

Bottom line: Yes, you are right, but is it worth the trouble?

Quote from Bastien

Bottom line: Yes, you are right, but is it worth the trouble?

For me, yes. Showing Buckley as a straight cover of Cohen’s 1984 original is clearly wrong, as he only uses two verses from that version, alongside three verses from the 1988 version.

Quote from Bastien

Everyone has already mentioned the huge workload to attribute all of the versions to the right work, but I see another issue also: Will our "unsuspecting" users still understand the set-up? Won't we create confusing with a Cohen-adaptation of another Cohen-work with the same title? And indeed, it would make the Buckley version a medley, and perhaps other versions as well. Won't that create too much confusion?

I don’t think it would be that confusing. Buckley would still show under the version list for the 1984 version, as would the other hit medley version - Hallelujah.

My suggestion would be to:

(1) create the 1988 adaptation - clearly described;

(2) set Buckley and Burke as medleys of both;

(3) move any versions that we know are not correctly attributed such as Hallelujah; and

(4) reattribute versions as we come across them.

Slightly different example but I had understood you were trying to do something similar with Nants' Ingonyama - Circle of Life

Sorry Seb, I'm with JoAnn & Bastien here. Let's not forget all lyrics are Cohen's, it's not that additional lines were written. For me, an explanatory comment here and there will solve this.

Quote from walt

Sorry Seb, I'm with JoAnn & Bastien here. Let's not forget all lyrics are Cohen's, it's not that additional lines were written. For me, an explanatory comment here and there will solve this.

I wish it was that simple walt . Buckley's version uses three verses that are not found on the 1984 Cohen version. They really are quite different songs. Showing Buckley as a straight cover of that version just can't be right. If anything the Buckley version uses more of the 1988 lyrics than the 1984 original.

Surely the way that we set this up in the database should reflect this?

Once we have the 1988 version in the database, then it shouldn't be difficult to move later versions over as we come across them.

I doubt most editors are going to listen to the entire track of each cover to find out which lyrics it has. And what about when we come across a version but don't have access to a recording of it (whole or partial). Also, what about translations into other languages? How do we know which lyrics the adaptation translates?

I just see this as causing more problems than it solves.

Quote from artsinspired

I just see this as causing more problems than it solves.

In the first instance, all we need to do is add the 1988 Cohen adaptation and version, and make the Buckley version a medley of both. All the other versions can stay as they are, until we have clear evidence that they include the 1988 lyrics. It can happen gradually as we come across them. I do think that our users would welcome our database reflecting the correct set-up for the Buckley version, as it is the most famous.

I'm surely with Bastien, JoAnne and walt, here. IMO, the answer to is it worth the trouble? is simply no.

Btw., Buckley's recording is based on John Cale's three years previous one and so are lots of other artists' versions.

Last edit: 2022-12-30 17:20:55 UTC by camembert electrique

Quote from camembert electrique

Btw., Buckley's recording is based on John Cale's three years previous one and so are lots of other artists' versions.

Even more important that we document the history of this song correctly on the site then.

Let's see if I understand the new adaptation policy correctly.

If it's too much of a workload to fix, then it is not an adaptation.

Is that the kind of credibility SHS wants to have? Just another cut and paste cover website?