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Unverified Covers - A serious blocking risk?

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-09 13:25:51 UTC

It all started when I tried to submit a cover of Summertime by Duke Ellington. The Youtube video for the track was blocked because someone has used it before. sebcat solved the riddle. There had been a previous submission by Sportin Life.

This was what I found out.

Sportin Line submitted in 2021 webcovers (?) of 200 plus versions of Summertime. All were labeled as vocal (although the vast majority were instrumentals), no release names or dates were given.

As a consequence they ended piled up as a block at the bottom of the vocal section of Summertime.

A brief analysis of the first posts reveals:

Art Tatum, Kurt Maier and George Melachrino are not Summertime, but medleys where the song is included, but not beeing even the first song.

Ralph Marterie is not Summertime but It Ain't Necessarily So.

THIS MEANS THAT THESE POSTS ARE PREVENTING MEMBERS FROM USING VIDEOS AND MORE IMPORTANT FROM SUBMITTING COVERS FOR SUMMERTIME.

If actions like these are to made intentionally, SHS would meet some serious blocking risks.

Now what I suggest.

1. Release name and date to be mandatory boxes when filling in the cover submissions.

2. Unverified covers to be open to Correction Reports, as verified items already are. Corrections are dealt with much sooner than verifications

Last edit: 2022-09-09 14:14:01 UTC by Tunesmith

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 6864

sebcat @ 2022-09-09 13:56:51 UTC

Sportin Line submitted webcovers (?) of 200 plus versions of Summertime. All were labeled as vocal (although the vast majority were instrumentals), no release names or dates were given.

As a consequence they ended piled up as a block at the bottom of the vocal section of Summertime.

Yes this is one of the problems with our process to "convert web-covers to submissions" - most of the relevant fields are not completed in the process, including the vocal/instrumental check. I don't think there is any way around this at the moment, except to allow free-editing of submissions by other users, like yourself.

A brief analysis of the first posts reveals:

Art Tatum, Kurt Maier and George Melachrino are not Summertime, but medleys where the song is included, but not beeing even the first song.

If Summertime is part of a medley, the performance can be legitimately submitted and processed Tunesmith . It doesn't have to be the first part of the medley either.

I know previously we had looked at ways that a user could still submit a cover even if it was part of a medley by that artist on site already or vice versa. Jeff Chamberlain submitted this enhancement earlier in the spring - New submission refused - medley exists - but it hasn't been processed yet. There are a lot of enhancements in the system and only one Mathieu unfortunately Smile

Ralph Marterie is not Summertime but It Ain't Necessarily So.

The record label suggests that this is a medley but I've not listened carefully to check.

THIS MEANS THAT THESE POSTS ARE PREVENTING MEMBERS FROM USING VIDEOS AND MORE IMPORTANT FROM SUBMITTING COVERS FOR SUMMERTIME.

I understand your point about videos Tunesmith - but I didn't realise that submissions could be blocked by such unverified covers even without the video. Could you provide an example where you've tried to submit a cover without a video and it has still been blocked?

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-09 15:09:58 UTC

Please go to Summertime and add a cover for Los Indios Tabajaras.

Make it an instrumental.

Although in the covers for these performers there is only one cover (vocal) for Summertime, you'll get "This instrumental cover has already been submitted".

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 1492

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2022-09-09 16:02:13 UTC

sebcat:

"I don't think there is any way around this at the moment, except to allow free-editing of submissions by other users, like yourself."


Speaking only for myself, I don't want "free editing." One of the main reasons why I chose not to pursue becoming an editor (lo these many years ago), was then and remains now a personal disinterest in many of the necessary aspects of submission verification (such as labels or cat. numbers), which I fully acknowledge are important but which are beyond my knowledge set and about which I'm just not interested enough to learn about. In addition (and as is fairly well-known around these parts), I profess incomprehension (often bordering on bewilderment) with enough SHS policies and practices to a point that surely militates against giving me "free editing" access (and which means I'd be reluctant to use that even if I had it). I want competent (and polite) editors verifying database content, including (and perhaps especially including) my own submissions. All that said, there may be aspects of the verification process that I could help with but do not currently have authority for. If so, I'd be pleased to discuss that.

Last edit: 2022-09-09 16:09:52 UTC by Jeff Chamberlain

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JC

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-09 16:03:32 UTC

One other artist on the list is Don Ralke. Sportin Life used a 2002 compilation release in the Youtube file. I found Summertime in a 1960 release and decided to do it all using the name Don Ralke Orchestra, as he did.

All went smoothly, until I got to Summertime. It was blocked.

To make it acceptable i used only Don Ralke and it went through.

This way if you go to Don Ralke covers you'll find an instrumental by Don Ralke and a non-instrumental by Don Ralke Orquestra that blocked my original post.

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 6864

sebcat @ 2022-09-09 18:47:35 UTC

In addition (and as is fairly well-known around these parts), I profess incomprehension (often bordering on bewilderment) with enough SHS policies and practices to a point that surely militates against giving me "free editing" access (and which means I'd be reluctant to use that even if I had it).

I was referring to submissions Jeff Chamberlain so you could add release info to unverified submissions just as you would do with your own submissions. Only senior editors have free-editing access over verified entries.

And yes your “bewilderment” with SHS is indeed well known as you often mention it in posts and replies.

I want competent (and polite) editors verifying database content, including (and perhaps especially including) my own submissions.

Do you not get that currently Jeff Chamberlain ?

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 1492

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2022-09-09 19:18:29 UTC

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment about "free editing." How would that differ from currently, when I can add information to someone else's submission just by a "new comment?"

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JC

sebcat

Managing Editor
Posts: 6864

sebcat @ 2022-09-09 19:42:37 UTC

Sorry if I misunderstood your comment about "free editing." How would that differ from currently, when I can add information to someone else's submission just by a "new comment?"

You would be able to add release info to the relevant fields, so the release year and artist were shown correctly in the version table. Currently you can only add a comment, as you say, which means that the key info fields stay blank.

I suspect it would be too complicated to set up, and only has limited use. But I wanted to flag as it would address some of the concerns of Tunesmith about the submissions converted from web covers bunching up at the bottom of the version table.

walt

Editor
Posts: 5639

walt @ 2022-09-10 07:23:19 UTC

submissions converted from web covers


From what I learn, this "action" turns out to be problematic (how big is this issue really?). Should we think this over or can we reverse this situation? Delete all false webcovers instead of converting them? Thoughts?

baggish

Editor
Posts: 3676

baggish @ 2022-09-10 09:24:24 UTC

Adding duplicate videos to submissions should not be blocked. This is something for editors to sort out, not submitters. If a video has been used before, then an automated text such as "this video has also been used in submission ... (link to submission)/also been used in performance ... (link to performance)" can be added to the submission to help editors do this job. IMO the submission process is now way too intimidating and process-orientated, it asks too much of submitters and possible new contributors and it is putting them off so that they go away.

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Really wild, General!

VirileVagabond

Member
Posts: 5529

VirileVagabond @ 2022-09-10 09:44:51 UTC

The "official" SHS policy is to file an error report when web covers have been officially released. There are two main problems with this:

a) As I've repeatedly complained, no "Discussion" tab is generated under web covers, so no one can readily see if the matter has already been reported. Since that enhancement is apparently not worth the effort, I ignore them now.

b) There is no real incentive to adequately research someone else's improper wen cover.


I continue to maintain that the far better policy is to submit as normal, referencing the improper web cover in the submission. If the web cover uses the desired vid resulting in a block, just note that as well.




As for blocks due to vocal vs. instrumental and medleys, not sure if there is an "official" policy or best practices, but I will pick one work of the medley that doesn't trigger a block and then note the other covered works as normal. If all else fails, submit as a new artist (.e.g.) Elvis Presley [Artist On Site] and link to the artist using the bio fields and in the body of the submission.

DashBoardDJ856

Junior Editor
Posts: 2256

DashBoardDJ856 @ 2022-09-11 01:24:29 UTC

I have to agree with Jon that the submission process is way too intimidating for new people. With a web cover you add 4 items of information and you get a 100% and push Submit and your done. With a regular submission you have to add a lot of info and it seems like you never get 100%, so you're not sure if you can file a submission or not. It appears there are the same 5 to 8 people filling out regular submissions and a lot more people submitting web covers instead.

If you were a new person which one would you fill out???

Plus I don't understand if a prompt can tell you there is a video being used, why can't it show you where it is being used? it's obviously flagging something. Don't understand why we have to hunt and peck to find it.

I'm gonna need more popcorn for this to be sorted out.

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Forgive me my nonsense, as I also forgive the nonsense of those that think they talk sense.

Mathieu

Manager
Posts: 5925

Mathieu @ 2022-09-11 08:48:50 UTC

Adding duplicate videos to submissions should not be blocked. This is something for editors to sort out, not submitters. If a video has been used before, then an automated text such as "this video has also been used in submission ... (link to submission)/also been used in performance ... (link to performance)" can be added to the submission to help editors do this job. IMO the submission process is now way too intimidating and process-orientated, it asks too much of submitters and possible new contributors and it is putting them off so that they go away.

... but still we have more submissions than we can process. If we make it easier, we'll have even more backlog, and probably lower quality submissions that require more work to process.

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-11 10:12:54 UTC

Mathieu


In order words, let's close submissions for five years and then resume when the backlog is no more.

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-15 10:36:50 UTC

Here I am again in the subject of making corrections to unverified covers.

Please go to the song "Pearl's a singer". You'll find that in 1995 there are two entries for that song, for the same artist "Pattie Darcie Jones", same release.

It's an obvious duplication.

Had I the possibility to report the error, that would alert an editor and the backlog would be one item shorter.

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 1492

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2022-09-15 11:28:14 UTC

Tunesmith


I leave a "comment" when I run across this (or when I have additional information that may assist an editor).

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JC

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-15 16:12:00 UTC

Wishfull thinking, Jeff.

Your comment doesn't ring any bell. No one will see it before someone gets assigned to that cover.

What's required it's to signal the item so someone deals with it (expectantly) sooner.

Limbabwe

Editor
Posts: 15755

Limbabwe @ 2022-09-15 16:47:32 UTC

Here I am again in the subject of making corrections to unverified covers.

Please go to the song "Pearl's a singer". You'll find that in 1995 there are two entries for that song, for the same artist "Pattie Darcie Jones", same release.

It's an obvious duplication.

Had I the possibility to report the error, that would alert an editor and the backlog would be one item shorter.

Sorted. Thanks for the input !

Jeff Chamberlain

Certified Contributor II
Posts: 1492

Jeff Chamberlain @ 2022-09-15 17:24:10 UTC

Tunesmith



When anyone other than an editor makes a submission, only the submitter may withdraw it. Short of that, an editor must always review it, even if only to reject it for some obvious failing of the sort you describe. Thus, the best we mere submitters can do is provide whoever that editor is with any information that will make his/her job easier.


It might streamline the process if there was a method for another submitter to identify the "error" up front, or not, since an editor will still have to look at the submission to verify/confirm/evaluate, etc.

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JC

Tunesmith

Member
Posts: 56

Tunesmith @ 2022-09-15 20:32:50 UTC

Thanks Limbabwe.

Backlog's one cover shorter.