Misirlou (walt)

Yes, I see your point, but what with the other 15 versions following that one,

I think they all are instrumentals !!

The Roubanis credit is dubious also... the melody is certainly older than his copyright.

Quote from walt

The Roubanis credit is dubious also... the melody is certainly older than his copyright.

But Walter, Roubanis was already mentioned as THE composer on the first recorded version.

http://www.secondhandsongs.com/picture/original/88280

JoJo greets

walt wrote:

Yes, I see your point, but what with the other 15 versions following that one,

I think they all are instrumentals !!

Except for Patrinos, they probably are all instrumentals. I just moved my entries to the earliest work after hearing the Demetriades recording that you put up. And I moved only mine -- too much arguing to the contrary.The (later) Patrinos recorded version I heard already is just different enough that it seemed to not match anything I had.

Misirlou has been in discussion for a long time here. And Patrinos, I now recall, was set as the original writer at one time. It didn't sink in until now that Nick Roubanis, he of the 1941 copyright, was now set as the original writer. I could ask you why you put Demetriades there, too. I agree Roubanis shouldn't be credited for the original. IMO "Traditional" is the correct choice. IIRC there was disagreement abut doing that. No author, no publisher, no language positively identified. Well, then, do we then not want to have Misirlou in the database?

I don't know what happened here except for the recent assertion of SHS policy to use royalty site credits above all else (i.e. like who really wrote the song). Here's the example that shows how wrong that policy is. A 1927 recording for a work dated 1941? jojo, note that Roubanis formalized copyright on this in 1941 without legal challenge. This is what can happen with very old songs and traditional ones. Comments here: Μισιρλού . Roubanis is on the label of the 1927 recording because it's a reissue and a US-made one. Greek Columbia records of the 1920s should have the slogan "Magic notes" and "BIEM" in a box. Ones I've seen had "made in Greece" (in English!).

EDIT: Demetriades apparently emigrated to the US in the early 1920s. So a US record makes sense. This label design was used from the 1920s to the 1930s in the US, it is true. But with the green label and catalog number suffix, this is not a standard domestic Columbia release. No way that Roubanis's name would appear on the record before his copyright, so this one is still a reissue.

Last updated by wally creek on 2013-10-16 09:16:50 UTC

Not sure, it's a reissue. Records aimed at the "immigrant" market, were green at the time.

Have a peek here: http://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/label/columbia-us/2

Couldn't the 1941 copyright be a renewal ?

I'm reluctant to move the instro's since we don't have an English sung version yet.

Here are 3 scans: Nick Roubanis is mentioned on all 3.

The ORIGINAL 1927 scan

And 2 re-issues

And probably the next scan is the one by the composer himself: with alias Nicolas Matthey.

Jojo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2013-10-16 17:07:37 UTC

I'm reluctant to move the instro's since we don't have an English sung version yet

IMO that's not a good reason. You could leave it to the editors as a group to decide what to do and let them handle their own entries. And what is deleted can be added back -- is there a problem with that? In any case, yes, we do have at least one English (Wise, Leeds, Russell) version, by the Cardinals. You added it BTW.

The "1941" copyright is not a renewal, strictly speaking. I find the actual copyright might be 1934 (in the name of Roubanis), found to be transferred to "Misirlou Music" in 1941, where a lot of people get the date from. One reference lists 1927 as a publishing date under Colonial Music Publishing. Different versions are always possible. Most of the material I've found says Roubanis was the first to register the song (in the US), and was not the original writer. Why did he wait so long since he was in the US by the early 1920s, supposedly? There is also a statement that he sold his royalties to Demetriades -- why doesn't Demetriades get credited on recordings, then? He normally should be if that is true. Very odd overall, lots of contradictory statements with this song.

It is also odd that Misirlou was apparently the only folk-type song Roubanis ever copyrighted, others being Greek liturgical music. You'd think that there would be more if he was such a songwriter.

Okay, now that I see Roubanis emigrated to the US in the early 1920s, it is more convincing that Roubanis wrote the Greek lyrics version of the song and Demetriades followed that. You'll find much dispute about whether that's the original. For the Greek version, it's typically referred to as rembetiko, but it's not "real" rembetiko which is extremely basic and raw like the oldest blues songs. Misirlou is quite Arabic/Turkish. Padrinos's version is not pure rembetiko either. His other recordings I've listened to are. And he came from one of the Greek islands off the Turkish mainland FWIW. But most modern references agree that Padrinos was not the writer.

The Decca recording could be recorded anywhere from the latter half of 1939 to 1942; 78discography.com fails to list this record. Nicolas Matthey appears to be Romanian (of Nicolas Matthey and His Gypsies). I also doubt any Greek would allow "Turkish solo" to be put on his record.

Conclusion at this time: Okay, Roubanis credited for the Greek version in the database. Otherwise, no, it's not proven that he was absolutely first.

The Decca recording could be recorded anywhere from the latter half of 1939 to 1942; 78discography.com fails to list this record ???

I found the recordingdate: August 15, 1939 on Decca 3205A

http://www.78discography.com/Dec3000.htm

So the label above (Decca 25045) was a re-release.

This site says Nicolas Matthey = Nick Roubanis

And he was a troubadour from Atlantic City with Greek roots.

http://covermepls.blogspot.nl/2008/03/blog-post_27.html#!/2008/03/blog-post_27.html

He has made albums of Roumanian songs, but also of Turkish songs and also of Armenian songs.

His orchestra, not without reason, was called Nicolas Matthey ORIENTAL Orchestra

JoJo greets

Last updated by jojo on 2013-10-17 19:04:43 UTC

Quote from jojo

The Decca recording could be recorded anywhere from the latter half of 1939 to 1942; 78discography.com fails to list this record ???

I found the recordingdate: August 15, 1939 on Decca 3205A

http://www.78discography.com/Dec3000.htm

So the label above (Decca 25045) was a re-release.

Joop, this info was already here in the database, thanks anyway. Alan probably overlooked that.

The confirmation on the alias of Nicolas Roubanis (as Nick Matthey) is a good find, this was assumed a long time ago. Are we sure, it's an instrumental? then I have to move it also.

Added Mitchell Ayres as first English sung version (1941), though I did not heard it yet,

and Woody Herman's, sung by himself, on YT.

@Alan: Moved all my instro's (and Antonio's) to "traditional work".

You have still 2 to move: Aki's & Ferrante's.

Quentin has 4, Tim has 2, Nap, Baggish, Denis & Bastien have 1.

I've moved mine, if you mean the one by The Trashmen.

So the label above (Decca 25045) was a re-release.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know about Decca, but other labels had multiple series with different catalog numbers but the same recording (proven by matrix number), released at the same time. They had re-release series, too. Nice bit of research BTW.

jojo, there are so many articles with wrong info about this song, I want to see more convincing proof. That doesn't matter. Matthey is walt's entry in the database and if he wants to merge Matthey with Roubanis, he can do it. And I think he wants to do it.

walt and baggish, thanks for updating. I've done my last 2.

To make the story even more interesting in the culturally mixed area of post ottoman times, the ending (l)ou in misirlou is used in greek language but it doesnt mean literally girl.

Its actually a turkish suffix used to describe a persons property. The (l)ou is feminine and the maskuline equivalent is (l)is as in kafetzis (the person who makes coffee), and kafetzou (the feminine form) paplomatzis (the person who makes matresses), or katourlis (the person who pisses himself) and katourlou (the feminine version of katourlis)

so by saying misirlou you just mean someone who comes from egypt and by using the feminine from you imply that this person who comes from egypt is actually a woman. the masculine version would be misrlis

ok got more concrete info about the name and the endings for those interested from a friend who is a historian of ottoman times.

the ending li, lι, lu, lü in turkish means two things.

1. something with (ex sekerli kahve = coffee with sugar)

2. a persons origin. (ex izmir izmirli =someone who is from izmir)

so misirlu means someone who cames from egypt (female form)

the other ending I mentioned -ci, -cı, -cu, -cü means a profession

taksi taksici (taxi driver), kahve kahveci (coffee maker)

both endings can also be found in greek meaning the same thing, taxitzis , taxitzou (male and female taxi driver),

and I promise I wont pester you any more with turkish/greek details

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