Performance vs. Release Treatment

How does SHS treat a situation when an artist has the first performance, but doesn't release in a standard audio format until some time later, often years? Does the artist cover themselves? Seems like I have seen it handled in various ways:

a) The subsequent release not indexed at all;

b) The subsequent release indexed to the same entry; and

c) The artist has two separate entries, original performance and a cover.

This situation is likely most common with film, television and Broadway productions.

What generated this post was Love Boat ..., which has both:

Love Boat

The Love Boat

Is this correct? I doubt that there is a material difference other than edits for length and some altered arrangements:

Nobody Does It Better

https://www.discogs.com/Jack-Jones-Nobody-Does-It-Better/release/2406615

https://www.discogs.com/Jack-Jones-Love-Boat-Theme-Ready-To-Take-A-Chance-Again/…

If so inclined, note also the missing covers of:

My Eyes Adored You

Ready to Take a Chance Again (relatively rare cover)

Last edit: 2019-07-15 03:23:37 UTC by Tar Heel

Quote from VirileVagabond

What generated this post was Love Boat ..., which has both:

Love Boat

The Love Boat

Is this correct? I doubt that there is a material difference other than edits for length and some altered arrangements.

This is indeed correct, because Quentin has identified that 1979 version is a re-recording.

The determining factor is whether it's the same performance or not.

In a Broadway performance, the opening performance is on stage, and the audio format version was probably recorded in a studio somewhere, so that's option (c). This is quite often the case in the 78 era.

In a film/tv, the same recording could be used in the film and on the record/cd, so that's option (b).

In the case of Love Boat, the tv version is from 1977 but the record contains a newer recording from 1979 so that's option (c). (Perhaps we could display a comment about that on one or more of the Love Boat pages, to make it clearer.)

I don't think option (a) should really be used. Maybe the audio format was released years later and the editor didn't find it.

Yes, public comments explaining a particular treatment would not only be helpful, but could avoid unnecessary error reports.

Seems that I have run into option c) .., at least when it should be used, when looking at old Disney tunes. A soundtrack may not have been released until years after those earlier films were released.

This is indeed correct, because Quentin has identified that 1979 version is a re-recording.

On first read, this made sense, but on further reflection, it no longer does. Artists re-record previous material all the time, also consider live albums, and we don't treat each as a separate cover. Why would Love Boat be any different?

Seems to me, that for Love Boat, the original would be the television performance and the first standard release, if a re-recording, referenced in the public comments. If the same recording, even if a full-length version or other edit, it would be indexed along with the non-standard performance.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

Additional thoughts:

It might not be that unusual for TV themes specifically that the original is only ~30 secs long and doesn't have "complete" lyrics for a regular length work. If it becomes popular, someone sits down and writes additional lyrics and perhaps music to create an entirely new work/adaption.

I could just be opening another proverbial can of worms here.

Last edit: 2017-07-11 04:47:32 UTC by Tar Heel

Quote from VirileVagabond

Artists re-record previous material all the time, also consider live albums, and we don't treat each as a separate cover.

No. Different recordings are different entries. It's just that in most cases we don't list them. But if we list them, they should be separate entries.

Quote from Bastien

It's just that in most cases we don't list them. But if we list them, they should be separate entries.

Huh? ... I believe Bastien means: We only list them if another prominent performer is involved (duet, backing band, etc) or if the actual performer has the first performance (like your Love Boat example) and records it afterwards. Other than that: no.

Quote from VirileVagabond

Seems to me, that for Love Boat, the original would be the television performance and the first standard release, if a re-recording, referenced in the public comments. If the same recording, even if a full-length version or other edit, it would be indexed along with the non-standard performance.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

I don't know if you can access the guidelines pages (I can't atm) but they explain that two performances of the same work by the same artist are allowed if:

1. The earliest performance qualifies as "first performance"

2. The earliest performance is unreleased on a "musical medium" (LP, CD...)

3. (ergo) The other performance is a re-recording.

This is, afaik, the case of Love Boat (or your case c)

You also wrote: Artists re-record previous material all the time, also consider live albums, and we don't treat each as a separate cover. - We do, if they satisfy all the above conditions. And also if the re-recording is sampled by another artist. Watermelon Man

If conditions No. 2 and (ergo) 3 are not satisfied = your case b.

Case a is simply a "missing cover" or an uncertain situation (I know about the first performance, I know about the first release, I don't know if they are the same recording) or a situation where there isn't an "absolute need" to introduce both first performance and the first release (eg, when both a movie and its soundtrack album came out around the same time) or finally in the not-so-uncommon event that the first recording/release actually predates the "first performance" (which automatically doesn't qualify as "first" anymore).

I will certainly add a comment to avoid confusion, but, cryptic as it is, information is already there. Why? Because there's no release linked to Love Boat ...

PS There's actually a sort of catch 22:

1 1977 first performance, originally unreleased

2 1979 first release, re-recording

3 1980 release, same recording as 1977

I don't remember what to do in such cases... Either release no. 2 or release no. 3 is redundant, but I don't know which one.

Last edit: 2017-07-11 12:47:56 UTC by Quentin

Yeah, Bast's response made no sense. Clearly we don't consider re-recordings as separate covers, save for the established exceptions when dealing with non-standard performances (as best explained by Quentin).

I Am Woman comes to mind, as the re-recording is the far more famous version, though we treat the original as, well... the original and not index the more famous version (though it is noted in the comments).

I can also see why a re-recording would have to be added if it is sampled, as the song isn't being covered, but rather a clip from a specific recording. Not sure how this situation should be handled on site. The re-recoding isn't a cover, so it should not be on the cover list. Perhaps some new nomenclature for a sampled source that's not also an original release or cover.

Frankly, I would consider dropping samples from the site. First I believe that there are dedicated sites for this and second they just gum up the coding. I have only considered submitting samples when the original work isn't on site, just to get that original researched and added.

It might not be that unusual for TV themes specifically that the original is only ~30 secs long and doesn't have "complete" lyrics for a regular length work. If it becomes popular, someone sits down and writes additional lyrics and perhaps music to create an entirely new work/adaption.

Continuing to muse on this and recalled We've Only Just Begun ....

First, wouldn't the original be the TV commercial per both SHS comments and wiki? Why would a commercial be treated any differently than a TV show or film?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We%27ve_Only_Just_Begun

Second, wiki seems to have conflicting info. First it suggests that a full song was written for the commercial and regular release:

"Carpenter ran into Williams on the record company's lot and asked if a full-length version was available. Although it had only two verses and no bridge, Williams stated that there was a bridge and an additional verse, forming a complete song...."

.., but suggests that Carpenter and Williams created a new work with additional music and lyrics:

"...he and Nichols went on to write them."

As I understand the history of this song....

a) The original performance would be the commercial.

b) The first adaption would be the complete song.

I dunno, this is a weird one for me.

Last edit: 2017-07-11 16:59:45 UTC by Tar Heel

VV

Yes it looks like this Carpenters case has already been discussed. It would be great to add the first appearance of this song in an ad as likely to be the first performance. But no one has yet tracked down a date for the first time the ad was screened or sufficient details about the ad itself.

Can you help?

Sebastian

Quote from sebcat

VV

Yes it looks like this Carpenters case has already been discussed. It would be great to add the first appearance of this song in an ad as likely to be the first performance. But no one has yet tracked down a date for the first time the ad was screened or sufficient details about the ad itself.

Can you help?

Sebastian

Sorry, I should have looked if there was an existing discussion, but this thread made me think if the song not vice versa.

Anyway, I did some Google and discogs work and posted on that thread. There's some interesting liner notes linked there that the editors may be able to use to resolve the matter.

Quote from Bastien

Quote from VirileVagabond

What generated this post was Love Boat ..., which has both:

Love Boat

The Love Boat

Is this correct? I doubt that there is a material difference other than edits for length and some altered arrangements.

This is indeed correct, because Quentin has identified that 1979 version is a re-recording.

My question is whether or not this is permitted according to our guidelines, since it is not the first release of this work. In a separate and very long thread, Bastien identified the following exceptions to the one performer, one performance rule.

Quote from Bastien

Quote from tsk

The only other exception that I currently see being used to the "one performance" rule is when the first released performance of a work by a particular artist is not the first recorded version, and the first recorded version is subsequently released.

Indeed, this is being used, and stated explicitly in the guidelines:

Exceptions where we allow multiple performances/work/artist:

When each of these performance are either a first performance, a first recording, a first release, or sampled by another performance.

So if people want to allow the second Love Boat performance, shouldn't the guidelines be updated?