Ball and Chain

I am trying to figure out

1) why it says under the 1983 release of cheap thrills, "Comments : Possibly the very first (officially released) recording of the song"" since in the columns it looks like the first release is the 1968 by mama thornton (no month)

2) why there are 2 listing with different dates for the BB & HC.?? (since many artists have more than one recording of their own songs and i have never seen this unless there is a difference, such as a duet, with any other recording/artist.

Thank you for clearing this up. (more than just for knowledge as i am tryng to give the best accurate info to someone on this song--- using SHS)

maryhelen

Written byWillie Mae "Big Mama" ThorntonLanguageEnglish

First recorded on July 28, 1966Released on

Cheaper Thrills Cheaper Thrills

Album

1983

Comments Possibly the very first (officially released) recording of the song.

Versions

Ball and Chain written by Willie Mae "Big Mama" Thornton English 

Title

Performer

Release date 

Info

Ball & Chain Big Brother and The Holding Company 1983 First recording on July 28, 1966

 Ball and Chain Big Mama Thornton and Her Hounddogs 1968 First release

 Ball and Chain Big Brother and The Holding Company August 12, 1968





For future reference, it's always helpful to link to the works/perfromances you have questions about so we don't have to go searching for it

As far as the questions go...

1. Not sure on that one.

2. The version released by them in 1983 is only listed here because it's also the first recorded version of the song. The version they released in 1968 is a different recording entirely. If that first version hadn't been released at all we wouldn't have listed it. This is one of the few cases where we allow two versions of the same work by the same artist.

ok thank you-- just bear with me for clarification

so the "original" version for all practical purposes is Mama thornton's. As I have said before, for most "listeners" (my f& fs)the first recorded version is a fact/not important to them since if it was not released til years later no ever heard it (except the few in and around the studio). I believe i can safely tell them this.

I don't get the link thing--i thought under topic it was listed-- I do it millions of times-- enter the name in search box and voila-- if needed- scroll down ????

Quote from maryhelen

1) why it says under the 1983 release of cheap thrills, "Comments : Possibly the very first (officially released) recording of the song""

I think what the editor meant to say here was this was the earliest recording that was eventually released, even though the release happened much later.

since in the columns it looks like the first release is the 1968 by mama thornton (no month)

No, I'm pretty sure Cheap Thrills was released earlier, and the Thornton release was in reaction to it. In fact the Back cover of that release mentions the Joplin version, and another source our editor attached to it implies the same. So I think our "First Release" designation is in error.

Joplin undoubtedly picked up the song from Thornton, but she released it first.

if it was released later (1983) it cannot be "the first officially released"

in light of all this, I'll go with MT as first release in 1968--and JP as cover; too may if,s posssibly and thinks, instead of evidence

Thanks

Quote from maryhelen

if it was released later (1983) it cannot be "the first officially released"

This was not the "first officially released recording", but, as of today, this was the earliest recording that "eventually ended up getting released".

in light of all this, I'll go with MT as first release in 1968--and JP as cover; too may if,s posssibly and thinks, instead of evidence

To reiterate, there are three performances under discussion here:

1. Ball & Chain recorded 1966, released 1983. This is the first recording that eventually got a commercial release, so our database notes it as such.

2. Ball and Chain recorded April 13, 1966, released August 12, 1968. This is the first commercial release, and should be noted as such (but currently isn't).

3. Ball and Chain recorded January 25, 1968. This was not the first recording, as (1) predates it. It was not the first release either, as (2) predates it. While my evidence yesterday was somewhat circumstantial, I looked at the back cover again, and at the end of the liner notes, it says "December, 1968", so it was released after (2).

There's no question to me that Thornton was the "original" artist here—she wrote the song, she performed it first, Joplin heard it from her. But by the definitions of our database, the two Joplin recordings are the "originals".

PS: I suppose the June 1967 performance by Joplin at Monterey Pop festival might also need a place in this conversation as the first visual performance.

Nice work, Matthias. And I agree that Joplin's perf at Monterey Pop festival should be added.

I'm less happy with the two recordings mentioned by BBHC. Though it's correct info, it's also overkill and confusing to the average user. A comment about the earlier recording would be much more user friendly.

Sending a reply request to PG who owns the song.

Well, sorry but your own list SHS "original "recording and original "release"- I have said it before original recording means nothing to listeners since they never hear it until and if it is released. My use of SHS and I have also said many times how much i like, use and appreciate it is for original release; my discussions with F &f is just that- who "sang" it first-- meaning who did they hear on the radio or bought on lp or 45 (they don't really care who put it on tape in a studio if the never heard it!) . In fact this is the "original" i always use. This mess has resulted because of a distinction that you want to ignore and use "original" alone: "But by the definitions of our database, the two Joplin recordings are the "originals"."

Even the title of the site" secondhandsongs" refers to covers/versions. No-one covers something they've never heard that's just common sense logic. Why " the definitions of our database" (really-- WHY???) insist on the non-logical "original" is incomprehensible. I and music aficionados like me, want this information. The average music lover-listener does not; it should be just that--additional information.

BTW- JJ performance at Monterrey Pop may just be also the first (albeit recorded) performance (add that-but not in the columns, as will just confuse us users even more), since MT's earlier performances were (s far as i can find/know) never recorded. Even though that was in 1967, the film, Monterey Pop was released in early 1968.

Final-- i love my SHS!!

I corrected everything and removed the offending comment. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote from walt

Nice work, Matthias. And I agree that Joplin's perf at Monterey Pop festival should be added.

I'm less happy with the two recordings mentioned by BBHC. Though it's correct info, it's also overkill and confusing to the average user. A comment about the earlier recording would be much more user friendly.

Sending a reply request to PG who owns the song.

Actually, I wanted to add the Monterey performance, but then I found Ball & Chain. Unfortunately, Monterey Pop is not a "first" for us. The movie itself was released well after the Cheap Thrills album.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064689/releaseinfo?ref_=tt_dt_dt

If the current situation is an overkill, adding a third performance by BB&THC would be even worse...

Quote from maryhelen

since MT's earlier performances were (s far as i can find/know) never recorded. Even though that was in 1967, the film, Monterey Pop was released in early 1968.

Not early 1968, late (very late) 1968 according to IMDB. Big Mama recorded the song in 1959-1960-1961 (depending on the source), according to https://www.allaboutbluesmusic.com/ball-and-chain/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_and_Chain_(Big_Mama_Thornton_song) and

Big Mama Thornton: The Life and Music. That's why I wrote that poorly-worded comment. It was a sort of warning sign that older recordings may exist, but, to date, they have yet to be released (or are lost fovever).

Quote from Quentin

Actually, I wanted to add the Monterey performance, but then I found Ball & Chain. Unfortunately, Monterey Pop is not a "first" for us. The movie itself was released well after the Cheap Thrills album.

It is a first. It doesn't matter when the movie was released. The performance counts, there were thousands of witnesses. There and then, the song was made public for the first time (as far as we know).

...and I still think the two BBHC recordings are overkill.

Quote from walt

It is a first. It doesn't matter when the movie was released. The performance counts, there were thousands of witnesses. There and then, the song was made public for the first time (as far as we know).

I don't think it is a first, except maybe as "first performance in a movie". It's not the first (live) performance because, according to wiki, Janis Joplin heard Mama Thornton performing it at a gig. Therefore Mama Thornton made the song public/did the first (live) performance. I don't know if it is known how many times/when Mama Thornton performed it live.

Quote from walt

Quote from Quentin

Actually, I wanted to add the Monterey performance, but then I found Ball & Chain. Unfortunately, Monterey Pop is not a "first" for us. The movie itself was released well after the Cheap Thrills album.

It is a first. It doesn't matter when the movie was released. The performance counts, there were thousands of witnesses. There and then, the song was made public for the first time (as far as we know).

...and I still think the two BBHC recordings are overkill.

As far as we know, the song was made public for the first time on July 28, 1966. Cheaper Thrills is a live album. There might be earlier performances/recordings (bootlegs? lost tapes?) but certainly Monterey Pop isn't one of them.

Quote from Quentin

?

As far as we know, the song was made public for the first time on July 28, 1966. Cheaper Thrills is a live album. There might be earlier performances/recordings (bootlegs? lost tapes?) but certainly Monterey Pop isn't one of them.

I stand corrected. It is a live performance, and well before Monterey. All the time, I thought we were talking about an unreleased studio outtake.

Quote from Quentin

As far as we know, the song was made public for the first time on July 28, 1966. Cheaper Thrills is a live album. There might be earlier performances/recordings (bootlegs? lost tapes?) but certainly Monterey Pop isn't one of them.

I agree, but Monterey Pop is (to my knowledge) the first performance captured on film, so I thought we had a separate category for that, but after reviewing our Live Show guidelines, I think I was probably mistaken.