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Here we are, 4 months later, and still no Homepage changes.

2 well known artists have died within a week (Spencer Davis and Jerry Jeff Walker), and what does this music site do??? Absolutely, NO mention at all.

But hey, don't you people worry, we have "Unrecognizable Cover Song" and "Revival Cover Song" covered.

Sad, very sad, indeed!

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

2 well known artists have died within a week (Spencer Davis and Jerry Jeff Walker), and what does this music site do??? Absolutely, NO mention at all.

But hey, don't you people worry, we have "Unrecognizable Cover Song" and "Revival Cover Song" covered.

Sad, very sad, indeed!

I surely agree it's sad if nothing announces influential and/or legendary etc. artists' just having passed away or shows up timely to commemorate them. I'm not sure how this should be done, though. Probably, it would need a script, related to the last two or three days, to make them appear (f. ex. in a fixed section on the start page).

Besides, should I be proud of having added 2 out of 3 'unrecognizable cover songs' showing right now/to me on the start page (but not tagged as such by myself as I did identify them)?

Reloading - algorhythms... - resulted in 'my' two being replaced by fine instrumentals of Barry White songs with a 'front' acoustic guitar altering the original vocal lines.

Once more reloading (algorhyms...), the above two were replaced by an urban grooving, so not exactly sing-along, version of It's My Party and a slowed down chamber ensemble version of Stand by Me.

What makes versions 'unrecognizable'? A main guitar not exactly following the original vocal line? The contemporary recording/production? An altered tempo? Orchestrations per se? Everything but the vocal lines being replayed?

And what's 'obscure' about any original?

I'm saying all this at length because 'unrecognizable' shows where subjective tags lead. And, yes, I know, most ought to be said elsewhere, but...

Last edit: 2020-10-29 02:12:03 UTC by camembert electrique

Quote from camembert electrique

Besides, should I be proud of having added 2 out of 3 'unrecognizable cover songs' showing right now/to me on the start page (but not tagged as such by myself as I did identify them)?

Reloading - algorhythms... - resulted in 'my' two being replaced by fine instrumentals of Barry White songs with a 'front' acoustic guitar altering the original vocal lines.

What makes versions 'unrecognizable'? A main guitar not exactly following the original vocal line? The contemporary recording/production? An altered tempo? Orchestrations per se? Everything but the vocal lines being replayed?

I can't provide any official answers, but I can expand how I use the "unrecognizable" tag. First, it doesn't matter if the song is "identified" as a cover. The pop-up indicates that I tagged Don't Make Me Wait Too Long as "unrecognizable" even though it's on a release titled "Just the Way You Are - Plays Barry White". This means that I listened to that performance in full and could not hear any of the original even knowing what song it is supposed to be covering.

In contrast, if I can't find any heavy evidence on site or elsewhere that identifies a song as a cover (i.e. other than just being listed on site as a cover), rather than tagging I will file an "are we sure..." error report.

And what's 'obscure' about any original?

I'm saying all this at length because 'unrecognizable' shows where subjective tags lead. And, yes, I know, most ought to be said elsewhere, but...

I see no value in the "obscure" tag.

Based on my personal use, I don't see too much subjectivity in "unrecognizable", though I have previously suggested "heavily rearranged" as an alternative.

The "unusual" tag, as it is used from my observations, is far more problematic. Just recently I saw a reggae cover tagged as "unusual". I was tempted to file reports on the other reggae covers of the same work asking why they weren't "unusual" as well.

The "obscure" tag is used for performances where one or more of the covers is so well known that many people don't even know it's a cover.

For instance, Living Next Door to Alice. The song is commonly identified with the group Smokie and was likely their biggest hit, but theirs was actually a cover that came along 4 years after the original.

Same with Fishin' in the Dark - #1 country hit for Nitty Gritty Dirt Band (and 4th biggest country song of the year apparently) but theirs was also a cover.

Quote from Oldiesmann

The "obscure" tag is used for performances where one or more of the covers is so well known that many people don't even know it's a cover.

I understand the goal in theory, but in practice? What you seem to describe would be "relatively obscure", namely the more well known the cover the more obscure the original becomes. Does Hendrix's "Watchtower" make Dylan's original obscure? It seems to me that the "definitive" and "hit" tags better serve our goals here.

Quote from Oldiesmann

The "obscure" tag is used for performances where one or more of the covers is so well known that many people don't even know it's a cover...

When reading this, I immediately thought of Manfred Mann and even more Earth Band, being masters in that respect. To just name a few out of a dozen or more:

Father of Day, Father of Night

Spirits in the Night

Mighty Quinn and Mighty Quinn

Synonyms of 'obscure' according to the Merriam-Webster dictionary: ambiguous, arcane, cryptic, dark, deep, Delphic, double-edged, elliptic, enigmatic, equivocal, fuliginous, inscrutable, murky, mysterious, mystic, nebulous, occult, opaque

I don't think any of those fits any of the MM&EB nor the Living Next Door to Alice or Fishin' in the Dark examples.

Now, 'Hit' is a good example for an objective tag - it can be proven/backed by chart positions, sales figures etc. - which in an analogue sense also goes for some other tags.

And yes, I, too, have seen easy listening pop-reggae versions of well-known songs tagged as "unusual". And just shook my head.

Not sure how far this all takes us from the original topic...

Quote from camembert electrique

And yes, I, too, have seen easy listening pop-reggae versions of well-known songs tagged as "unusual". And just shook my head.

The current homepage is largely a function of tags, so these issues will almost always keep coming back.

Some people struggle with discretion and restraint; can vs. should. A knowledgeable man understands what he can do while a wise man understands that he still shouldn't.

Quote from VirileVagabond

The current homepage is largely a function of tags, so these issues will almost always keep coming back..

Probably very right...

Quote from VirileVagabond

A knowledgeable man understands what he can do while a wise man understands that he still shouldn't.

So, let's remain knowledgeable and wise men...

Quote from DashBoardDJ856

2 well known artists have died within a week (Spencer Davis and Jerry Jeff Walker), and what does this music site do??? Absolutely, NO mention at all.

If you want to push this feature, participate in https://secondhandsongs.com/topic/75762

Quote from camembert electrique

I surely agree it's sad if nothing announces influential and/or legendary etc. artists' just having passed away or shows up timely to commemorate them. I'm not sure how this should be done, though. Probably, it would need a script, related to the last two or three days, to make them appear (f. ex. in a fixed section on the start page).

This is the thread regarding the "On This Day" feature including recently deceased artists: https://secondhandsongs.com/topic/75762

Quote from camembert electrique

What makes versions 'unrecognizable'? A main guitar not exactly following the original vocal line? The contemporary recording/production? An altered tempo? Orchestrations per se? Everything but the vocal lines being replayed?

And what's 'obscure' about any original?

I'm saying all this at length because 'unrecognizable' shows where subjective tags lead. And, yes, I know, most ought to be said elsewhere, but...

I don't think there is dedicated topic on the unrecognizable tag yet, so feel free to create it.

Quote from Oldiesmann

For instance, Living Next Door to Alice. The song is commonly identified with the group Smokie and was likely their biggest hit, but theirs was actually a cover that came along 4 years after the original.

Good example. Tagged.

Yesterday I heard Madness' "It Must Be Love"... Labi Schiffre's It Must Be Love is also a good example of an obscure original.

Quote from Bastien

Yesterday I heard Madness' "It Must Be Love"... Labi Schiffre's It Must Be Love is also a good example of an obscure original.

Obscure is a relative notion: Labi Siffre's version of It Must Be Love was a big hit in The Netherlands in 1972 and reached #21 in 1972 and the 1981 UK hit by Madness did not chart there. So, what is obscure in one country..................

Quote from Bastien

Yesterday I heard Madness' "It Must Be Love"... Labi Schiffre's It Must Be Love is also a good example of an obscure original.

A bit confused... What's so obscure about an advanced sing-along pop song like "It Must Be Love"?

What about a catchy song like O Superman, then? Peaking at 2 in the UK charts (plus top 10 in NL, top 20 in Belgium etc.)...

I wouldn't call Spill the Wine an obscure version, either

The recent examples all seem to evidence the troubles with the "more obscure" tag. Another mystery to me is why this tag isn't out of scope:

https://secondhandsongs.com/message/204089

..., while the "unrecognizable" tag apparently is out of scope:

https://secondhandsongs.com/message/204088

Again, the current homepage is almost 100% tag driven, so any current discussion will most likely involve tags.

Quote from CarlDennis

Obscure is a relative notion

No doubt about that.

Quote from camembert electrique

A bit confused... What's so obscure about an advanced sing-along pop song like "It Must Be Love"?

It's not about the work, it's about the performance.

Quote from Bastien

Quote from camembert electrique

A bit confused... What's so obscure about an advanced sing-along pop song like "It Must Be Love"?

It's not about the work, it's about the performance.

Rest assured that I know such differences very well.

Answering to an included quote with an according link, I thought the reference was obvious.

Next time, I'll write "...with a recording like the one linked above", instead.

Quote from camembert electrique

Quote from Bastien

Quote from camembert electrique

A bit confused... What's so obscure about an advanced sing-along pop song like "It Must Be Love"?

It's not about the work, it's about the performance.

Rest assured that I know such differences very well.

Answering to an included quote with an according link, I thought the reference was obvious.

Next time, I'll write "...with a recording like the one linked above", instead.

I so feel your pain here CE. I was immediately reminded of:

https://secondhandsongs.com/message/198035

I'll also note that It Must Be Love is currently tagged as a hit song and has a comment that reads "#21 in The Netherlands in 1972". I can't see how this would be a "good example of an obscure original" but does seem to be a good example of why the obscure tag is problematic.

Someone suggested the tag in good faith, but it's not working in practice. Given how tags have evolved with (e.g.) "hit song" and "definitive" options, what niche is the "more obscure" now filling?