When is an original an original? Mona Lisa, Tourbillon, Little Boxes, etc.

I've been reading a few threads and have some questions with examples. 

1. Mona Lisa Mona Lisa

and Que Sera Sera Que sera sera (Whatever will be will be)

give credit to the performances in movies as the originals. 

Mona Lisa: "From the movie "Captain Carey, USA". Sung in the movie by a blind Italian street performer, who could be David Leonard."

Que Sera Sera: "From the movie "The Man who knew too Much"."

The other entries are listed as COVERS. 

I thought that MOVIES don't count as releases.  I submitted:

http://www.secondhandsongs.com/forum/index.php?topic=6259.msg18302#msg18302

Song Title: Le Tourbillon de la Vie

Artist: Jeanne Moreau

"Album" = Movie: Jules et Jim

First Recording / film release: 1962

"Label": (film released by): Les Films du Carrosse and SEDIF

Song Written by: Cyrus Bassiak (real name: Serge Rezvani)

Why doesn't that count as the original release?  (It was covered by The Magnetic Fields [full details provided] and Vanessa Paradis [don't have release date or album info].)

2. Another one that confuses me is:  Get Together

Song: Let's Get Together

Artist: Dino Valenti (1996)

Original music and lyrics by: Chester William Powers

(Dino Valenti is one of Chet Powers pseudonyms.  They are one and the same person.)

Which is the ORIGINAL and which are COVERS? 

Valenti was performing the song as early as 1963 (maybe earlier?) and he was copied (covered) by other folk-pop-rock groups.  Although Valenti / Powers was able to record SOME (actually, very little) of his music in the 1960s, "Get Together" was not one of the songs recorded back then. 

Then, by checking release dates, it seems that the release date for Hamilton Camp's "Paths of Victory" was DECEMBER 1964 while the release date of the Kingston Trio "Back in Town" album was JUNE 1964.  Other info on the web and liner notes suggests that Hamilton Camp learned the song from the Kingston Trio.  I don't think the ORIGINAL should be Hamilton Camp.  Minimally, it should be the Kingston Trio but rightfully it should be Dino Valenti = Chet Powers.

3. In a similar vein, one of my pending submissions is:

http://www.secondhandsongs.com/forum/index.php?topic=8352.msg23739#msg23739

Song Title: Little Boxes

Artist: Malvina Reynolds

Written by: Malvina Reynolds (in 1962)

Album Title: Malvina Reynolds Sings the Truth

Folk historians seem to know how and when Reynolds wrote this song (driving down a California highway near Daly City) and that she was singing it at rallies and protests.  Other folk singers with recording contracts were able to record it BEFORE Malvina Reynolds did but it's HER song and she sang it first!  She didn't get the opportunity to record it until 1967, even tho' others (e.g., Pete Seeger) had recorded it in 1963.

If this entry gets accepted, I think that Malvina Reynolds should get credited as the original.

Quote by Vic Trola at 1160867896:

Why doesn't that count as the original release? (It was covered by The Magnetic Fields [full details provided] and Vanessa Paradis [don't have release date or album info].)

Maybe it will count as the original release. The only problem is that Bastien hasn't got round to looking at it yet, the queue for submissions is quite long... (He seems to be considering sumbissions made in August 2005 at the moment!) If I understand your other mail correctly, Vanessa Paradis was only a live perfomance so that might not count (originals can be live only, but covers have to be officially released in some way). The same for movies, the original can be in a movie but the cover must be available on a primarily music-based medium (i.e. for the cover, a sound track album is ok, movie itself is not).

Quote by Vic Trola at 1160867896:

Then, by checking release dates, it seems that the release date for Hamilton Camp's "Paths of Victory" was DECEMBER 1964 while the release date of the Kingston Trio "Back in Town" album was JUNE 1964. Other info on the web and liner notes suggests that Hamilton Camp learned the song from the Kingston Trio. I don't think the ORIGINAL should be Hamilton Camp. Minimally, it should be the Kingston Trio but rightfully it should be Dino Valenti = Chet Powers.

Dino Valenti is the original, he is at the top of the list, with no indentation. In his version it says it was recorded in 1964 but not released until 1996 (OK, it doesn't say this very clearly, but it does say it...). At the moment, Hamilton Camp's "Paths of Victory" is only in SHS as 1964, please report the December part to the 'Report Errors and Inaccrurate Information' forum together with source, etc (click 'Report errors about this song' at the bottom of the relevant page). If you click on Dino Valenti or Chet Powers, you will see they are connected.

Quote by Vic Trola at 1160867896:

Folk historians seem to know how and when Reynolds wrote this song (driving down a California highway near Daly City) and that she was singing it at rallies and protests. Other folk singers with recording contracts were able to record it BEFORE Malvina Reynolds did but it's HER song and she sang it first! She didn't get the opportunity to record it until 1967, even tho' others (e.g., Pete Seeger) had recorded it in 1963.

If this entry gets accepted, I think that Malvina Reynolds should get credited as the original.

Well, again the main problem is that Bastien hasn't got round to this one yet. But if you look at http://www.secondhandsongs.com/wiki/Guidelines/Original, I think he will credit Malvina Reynolds as the original, same as Dino Valenti in the previous example.

Hope this helps

Jon

Last edit: 2006-10-15 14:00:36 UTC by baggish

Thanks for the comments.  I've been feeling ignored because of my pending submissions.

(Tourbillon de la Vie)

Why doesn't that count as the original release?  (It was covered by The Magnetic Fields [full details provided] and Vanessa Paradis [don't have release date or album info].)

Maybe it will count as the original release. The only problem is that Bastien hasn't got round to looking at it

Well, when he does, that's got to be a "definite" entry. (But not the Vanessa Paradis cover.)

(Get Together)

Then, by checking release dates, it seems that the release date for Hamilton Camp's "Paths of Victory" was DECEMBER 1964 while the release date of the Kingston Trio "Back in Town" album was JUNE 1964.  Other info on the web and liner notes suggests that Hamilton Camp learned the song from the Kingston Trio.  I don't think the ORIGINAL should be Hamilton Camp.  Minimally, it should be the Kingston Trio but rightfully it should be Dino Valenti = Chet Powers.

Dino Valenti is the original, he is at the top of the list, with no indentation. In his version it says it was recorded in 1964 but not released until 1996 (OK, it doesn't say this very clearly, but it does say it...).

Yep, it wasn't very clear.  But still gets confusing as to what's an original, a cover, a release, etc.   I've recently switched to using the "Report Errors" link instead of using the forums.

(Little Boxes)

If this entry gets accepted, I think that Malvina Reynolds should get credited as the original.

Well, again the main problem is that Bastien hasn't got round to this one yet. But if you look at http://www.secondhandsongs.com/wiki/Guidelines/Original, I think he will credit Malvina Reynolds as the original, same as Dino Valenti in the previous example.

Great!

Hope this helps 

Yes, indeed.  Thank you.

About Malvina Reynolds' song, when the song will be processed, the editor will search for a reliable source stating that she actually sang the song in front of an audience (public version) prior to Pete Seeger (or whoever recorded it first). If he doesn't find this type of information he'll probably "have to" credit Pete Seeger (or whoever...) as the original performer.

The only exception we apply to this rule (release date / recording date / first performance date) is for so-called traditionals and very old songs (classical music, for instance): by definition they were performed thousands of times before they were recorded (or released) by an artist, so in these cases we use the publishing date or the composition date or (in extreme cases) no date, but a comment explaining the origin of the song.